How will the Turbo Maverick affect UTV racing?

[JoeyD23]

Maybe thy should make a class for each individual racer so everyone gets a trophy. I will bring snacks and juice boxes for everyone after the race.

Lol

I'm driving my kids to football practice. I get it lol

 

[JoeyD23]

In red

That was certainly a factor but it would have been a harder decision to make if we had car counts like today's regionals. Proof is how long they kept j1 and k2 around.

 

[JoeyD23]

Most Desert races are won by the guy who prepped the best and made his machine last, not the guy with 11 more hp.

I say let them add the turbo element and gamble that the 11 more hp is worth it.

My money is on the one with less stuff to go wrong

Look a Casey Currie Puts the teryx on the podium at hammers against some cars that I would say had 50% more power

Desert racing is easier to argue the turbo inclusion. What about WORCS and lucas though?

 

[Zach7x]

That's a good point, I really haven't given that much thought

 

[NIKAL]

As of right now I do not know of anyone that can do as good or better job than Cory does. he knows our class which is important in my opinion. This has been a concern for our class for a long time, many still share the concern.

Cory is doing a great job, albeit a thankless one. It is weird that I (we) race against the class rep, but somehow it works.

Like I said I dont know Cory, but I what I get is he took the job when there was no one else there to do it. It was guys like him that helped get this class to where it is and that has to be respected & appreciated.

But here is what I see happening. Lets say BITD who takes the lead regarding rules, they make a rule change allowing the Can Am Turbo. How many are going to think Cory did so to help the manufacture he races with? Some, maybe no one? What happens if Cory allows the Turbo's and they dominate the desert series? I bet allot more will think Cory made the rules change to give Can Am an advantage. The if Cory does the opposite how many anti-Polaris fans are going to claim that Polaris (The 800lbs Gorilla in the room) put a stop to it as they did not want the competition? Some, maybe none? Either way people will speculate and so might think their are deals going on behind the curtain.

We see & hear all the time that Polaris has more money, more factory teams, teams like Jagged X have an advantage ect..

Like Joey stated earlier Cory is in a tough spot, or at least it might look that way from the outside looking in.

I have yet to see a racing org where someone who is a racer, team owner or has any financial investment in the sport from a team side can make a good leader, and not have the black cloud of speculation looming over them.

It did not work in CART, Hydroplane racing, and one more that I cant think of the name of. I remember reading an article about Mickey Thompson and his stadiums series. He said I would love to be behind the wheel, but you cant run this business objectively doing so. He knew when it was time to run the show, you need to do so from the side lines. Its a theory that NASCAR has taken and they have shown it works.

 

[Bajaxp]

Robby and SST?

But again, heretofore Cory has been able to separate the two. I will be the first person to call 'B.S.' but so far there is no need. Cory just wants to race, like the rest of us.

 

[dnf736]

That was certainly a factor but it would have been a harder decision to make if we had car counts like today's regionals. Proof is how long they kept j1 and k2 around.

That came straight from Tony V. and a couple of other LOORRS staff members, we just made it easy for them with low car counts. 2012 was UTV, 2013 was SuperLite and Limited Buggy. And if ProBuggy doesnt get it together they are next.

Jr1 & Jr2 isnt going anywhere, they are on the schedule for 12 of 16 rounds this year leaving out the 4 rounds at Reno since that track really isnt Jr kart friendly.

The reason they were kept (IMO) is easy, its all about 1. trucks, 2. money. They feed Mod kart and any parent that has the capitol to fund one of those money pits has the ability to step right into ProLite.

In the end I think UTV at the Nationals was doomed anyway, between the $500 entry and 5000 miles of travel to make the tour I doubt there are enough die hard short course racers that would commit to that level of racing. I would love to be proven wrong and see UTV back at the Nationals.
In fact, make it happen Joey, Ronnie and Shelby would rather race UTV than ProLite, right?

Oh, and to the original topic, turbo in UnLimited only. Its like this, if all the OEMs make a turbo model tomorrow were still going to have two classes, maybe by different names but there will still be two. Turbo, and non-turbo. AND, the turbo model has to be offered as factory, no after market bolt ons.

My .02

 

[450grl]

As for the SR1, it had nothing to do with the demise of UTV racing in the big series at LOORRS. If anything, SR1 preserved it for a bit. WE as a class outraced ourselves from the class because of the limitations of the factory CCs and our desire to go faster thuis spending wayyyy to much money to do so. If you didn't have a $10K + engine package in your UTV don't even bother showing up... that was only sustained for so long by Venbeekum, Funco, RJ Anderson, Kimbrell, etc... everyone else played for 4th place hoping for one of the fast guys to break.

SR1 gave guys with Rhino's an option to get back out there and have some fun. Weller made that attainable and the SR1 has sustained itself as a class. But SR1 had nothing to do with us losing UTVs at LOORRS. If we had the RZR 1000 back then we would still be in the big show. Look at the numbers today at the Regionals. Then again, I doubt 50% or more of the current UTV racers would spend the money it costs to race LOORRS at the national level. Entry, pit costs, crew, travel, etc is not to be overlooked. Regionals reduce all of that cost by 90% or more.

I will add one more thing. If a turbo showed up at LOORRS no way they would have said, oh its factory, just go race in pro utv.. NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!

THANK YOU JOEY!! I was all ready to type my fingers off in response to that post, and you just saved me some valuable race prep time tonight by answering it perfectly for me!! The big show was expensive - for racers AND the series itself.....and that is why the UTVs were cut.

I think the Regionals have become an AWESOME venue for the class, and it seems to be healthy for ALL classes, as every UTV class has been growing steadily over the past two years.

This turbo dealio....hmmmm...it does present a dilemma. If I were running a series and the turbos came out, I'd probably do what is usually done, and create a class just FOR turbos/superchargers once there were enough entries for a class. Factory AND aftermarket allowed. I don't feel it's fair to pit a turbo'd UTV against a non-turbo'd UTV - no matter what the HP or torque numbers might be. I also understand that car counts might be low until the rest of the OEM's follow suit, but that's how it goes with a new level of performance. Race Open or the equivilent until there are enough for a class - compare your times, etc with the Pros in the meantime, and get your friends to buy some turbo'd UTVs and come play.

It keeps the classes fair and doesn't open up Pandora's box or blur class lines because someone has a machine that no longer conforms to current class structures.

Just my .02 from being around this stuff for a long time.

In LOORRS, they'd run in Unlimited UTV. Do they have an equivilent in desert racing?

 

[JoeyD23]

THANK YOU JOEY!! I was all ready to type my fingers off in response to that post, and you just saved me some valuable race prep time tonight by answering it perfectly for me!! The big show was expensive - for racers AND the series itself.....and that is why the UTVs were cut.

I think the Regionals have become an AWESOME venue for the class, and it seems to be healthy for ALL classes, as every UTV class has been growing steadily over the past two years.

This turbo dealio....hmmmm...it does present a dilemma. If I were running a series and the turbos came out, I'd probably do what is usually done, and create a class just FOR turbos/superchargers once there were enough entries for a class. Factory AND aftermarket allowed. I don't feel it's fair to pit a turbo'd UTV against a non-turbo'd UTV - no matter what the HP or torque numbers might be. I also understand that car counts might be low until the rest of the OEM's follow suit, but that's how it goes with a new level of performance. Race Open or the equivilent until there are enough for a class - compare your times, etc with the Pros in the meantime, and get your friends to buy some turbo'd UTVs and come play.

It keeps the classes fair and doesn't open up Pandora's box or blur class lines because someone has a machine that no longer conforms to current class structures.

Just my .02 from being around this stuff for a long time.

In LOORRS, they'd run in Unlimited UTV. Do they have an equivilent in desert racing?

Word is that BITD was going to create an Unlimited class for next year to put all engine swap including DSR1 in as well as other "unlimited" UTVs.

 

[tatum]

THANK YOU JOEY!! I was all ready to type my fingers off in response to that post, and you just saved me some valuable race prep time tonight by answering it perfectly for me!! The big show was expensive - for racers AND the series itself.....and that is why the UTVs were cut.

I think the Regionals have become an AWESOME venue for the class, and it seems to be healthy for ALL classes, as every UTV class has been growing steadily over the past two years.

This turbo dealio....hmmmm...it does present a dilemma. If I were running a series and the turbos came out, I'd probably do what is usually done, and create a class just FOR turbos/superchargers once there were enough entries for a class. Factory AND aftermarket allowed. I don't feel it's fair to pit a turbo'd UTV against a non-turbo'd UTV - no matter what the HP or torque numbers might be. I also understand that car counts might be low until the rest of the OEM's follow suit, but that's how it goes with a new level of performance. Race Open or the equivilent until there are enough for a class - compare your times, etc with the Pros in the meantime, and get your friends to buy some turbo'd UTVs and come play.

It keeps the classes fair and doesn't open up Pandora's box or blur class lines because someone has a machine that no longer conforms to current class structures.

Just my .02 from being around this stuff for a long time.

In LOORRS, they'd run in Unlimited UTV. Do they have an equivilent in desert racing?

No turbos in LOORRS Unlimited UTV class per the rules.

 

[warlock]

Maybe thy should make a class for each individual racer so everyone gets a trophy. I will bring snacks and juice boxes for everyone after the race.

Yeah Buddy that's what Im thinking cause everyone is Special and were all Winners. Obama Special series. I heard out there in Cal they had some baseball series where they will no longer keep scores so nobody ever feels defeat. Whats the World coming to. only in Ca. I didn't vote for him. LOL.

 

[warlock]

Cory is 100% spot on! If you single out a manufacture or model because it might have an advantage in one area vs the other manufactures, then you are essentially going to be splitting the classes up to make a place for everyone. If the decision is to split and make new classes. I can assure you this will be the beginning of the end in regards to the growth & popularity of the UTV class. Many classes have been ruined over the year because of things like this.

If anything the Turbo Maverick should be allowed to race in the Pro Production class as it is a production model and meets the current rules. Lets see in a year or two if there is really any advantage to the Turbo. If the 3 or 4 Can Am teams are really putting a beating on the Polaris, Arctic Cat or whoever joins the UTV performance market, then a possible rule or class change might be warranted. But by this time the other manufactures might have there own "gimmick" and this Turbo might be a mute point.


(Something to think about)

Competition is not only good for the sport, but it's what feeds and keep the class alive. This turbo might be what Polaris needs to stay alive in our sport!

Your asking how does Can Am's Turbo help Polaris?

Its a Fact a manufacture is only apart of a sport if they can show it is making the business money. If the Board of Directors at Polaris no longer see a Return On Investment, or feel they no longer have anything to prove in desert racing, they will pull from the sport and invest their money somewhere else.

You dont think it can happen?

Ask Factory Honda, why they are no longer racing in the desert? Johnny Campbell (JCR) took the factory Honda Desert team and made the switch to the GNCC series. Why? Because Honda no longer felt is was relevant for them as a company to be involved in Baja or U.S desert racing. They no longer had anything to prove. No other manufacture had a full "Works" team, and without the competition Honda did not see a ROI.


Back in the 80's & 90's you had BFG, Goodyear, Bridgstone, Firestone, General Tire, Yokohama, Sand Blaster and several more tires in the sport and there was a reason to be here. By the year 2000 most tire manufactures had quit supporting desert racing, but BFG stuck around.

BFG tires had always helped Score foot the bill to marking the courses, helped with timing, and supported Weatherman & Score Ops with communication. Gave dozens of teams full sponsorship. Anyone else who wanted to run BFG tires, were offered a racer program which reduced the cost of tires, immensely. Anyone who ran BFG tires got free pit support the full length of the course.

Then around 2003-05 BFG was shrinking the off-road dept & budget. And there was talk about BFG's parent company Michelin pulling the plug on the whole operation. The reason was none of the other big tire manufactures were supporting then series and their was nothing to prove. When Yokohama came back, when Toyo entered, when General Tire returned it was an infusion in the sport and gave the BFG off-road division a reason to be here. They had to start losing to the other manufactures, for corporate to see they needed to be here.

Bottom line is if Polaris does not have competition, and if they dont lose once in awhile they will not see the ROI and they will pull the plug on their support. This is why I feel its important that teams like Mark Barnett & the Monster Mav need to win the Score Championship. We need to see Can Am & Arctic Cat step up and beet Polaris in BITD too. Any time you have dominance the only one who wins is the winning team. And even that will hurt that team in the long run.

Perfectly stated. I totally agree.

 

[JoeyD23]

UTVs have been adding and removing classes to adapt to newer machines for years. It has not hurt anything. A new machine comes out, you add the class, the class grows, it either makes it as its own class or merges as the new standard. Pretty simple really. You don't just take a machine that breaks a rule and say it deserves to be in because its factory..

For those who think in this case that its "fair" to put a Turbo machine head to head with a Non Turbo machine, in a class designed and governed with a rule for NO turbo, either don't race or have no understanding of fair competition in racing.

Again, you can argue the desert side much easier but this thread wasn't just about desert. Its about short course and worcs too.

 

[crazywatson]

I say let the turbos run the pro class and have a lower class with no turbo. The Pros have the big bucks to compete with a new car. If the Can Am starts dominating other manufacturers aren't going to sit around and just take it. There going to step up there game. Win win for consumers. The unlimited class with engine swaps and such just doesn't seem like a big class. There is no manufacturers support and it mostly a bunch of guys that have frankensteined a fast car together and want to race it. I know there are allot of SR1 cars professionally built too but they is nothing really left of the rhino.

 

[JoeyD23]

I say let the turbos run the pro class and have a lower class with no turbo. The Pros have the big bucks to compete with a new car. If the Can Am starts dominating other manufacturers aren't going to sit around and just take it. There going to step up there game. Win win for consumers. The unlimited class with engine swaps and such just doesn't seem like a big class. There is no manufacturers support and it mostly a bunch of guys that have frankensteined a fast car together and want to race it. I know there are allot of SR1 cars professionally built too but they is nothing really left of the rhino.

So make it about the manufacturers and tell all the current pro racers that their current cars are only good for a sportsman class?? Seems legit.... lol

 

[warlock]

Well it wont be until next season when these Turbo Can Am cars will be out and about any how, so teams might me planning on running some I don't really know. If a Self Sponsored Guy has a new car now he will be needing a new build racer in a year any how to be truly competitive. and the Teams all sponsored by Polaris will be given Free cars again and a Allowance for there Build. Like usual so to those Teams it wont be a huge Financial burden next season. But it will matter to the Underfunded Independent guys. Nobody really watches whats going or spends much time staying up with the Bastardized SR1 class because they wont ever own one. People like to root for there Favorite cars and companies period, Win on Sunday sell on Monday. So yeah they really all need to Race together in the Spirit of competition. The Can Am car is a full production based unit so I say let them Race if they want and it will also bring in more sponsorship Money and really make the Races even more Exciting. Don't throw them to the Curb and kill the Enthusiasm.

 

[JoeyD23]

Well it wont be until next season when these Turbo Can Am cars will be out and about any how, so teams might me planning on running some I don't really know. If a Self Sponsored Guy has a new car now he will be needing a new build racer in a year any how to be truly competitive. and the Teams all sponsored by Polaris will be given Free cars again and a Allowance for there Build. Like usual so to those Teams it wont be a huge Financial burden next season. But it will matter to the Underfunded Independent guys. Nobody really watches whats going or spends much time staying up with the Bastardized SR1 class because they wont ever own one. People like to root for there Favorite cars and companies period, Win on Sunday sell on Monday. So yeah they really all need to Race together in the Spirit of competition. The Can Am car is a full production based unit so I say let them Race if they want and it will also bring in more sponsorship Money and really make the Races even more Exciting. Don't throw them to the Curb and kill the Enthusiasm.

No will need a new car next season if the classes remain according to that rules are currently in place. If they build one it's because they want to. Not because they have too.

Turbo cars race in Unlimited and earn their keep. You shouldn't affect the second largest class in off road racing for what might only be 2 or 3 or 5 or whatever racers and one OEM.

Am I on crack??

 

[crazywatson]

So make it about the manufacturers and tell all the current pro racers that their current cars are only good for a sportsman class?? Seems legit.... lol

Well I guess if your going to assume Can Am would be that dominant right off the bat. I would say by the time they have teams with there cars dialed those old cars would be outdated anyway.

 

[badassmav]

I'm going off of my faded memory here, so no nitpicking! (and I'm not inferring that the new turbo Mav's be allowed into the pro 1900 class as of yet.)

With that being said, given Can-am's current roster of teams (us included), I don't believe that the 10% more horsepower that the new Mav's possess over the RZR's will make one iota of difference in the finishing order, wins, losses or otherwise against the current efforts of the Polaris camp. Didn't we have that close to that same advantage last year before Polaris bumped up their H.P., and to no avail?

Just because a promotional video shows the Mav launching off of a razorback, whilst the RZR buries it's rear at the crest of it doesn't mean that we'll cross the checkers first in a SCORE or BITD event. I heard that the turbo increases the torque significabntly, but when transferred through a CVT clutch, isn't torque really overrated? Now, if Can-am came out with a badass sequential shift tranny that offered a mechanical advantage in the leveraging of gear ratios (as MP touched on earlier), I would say yes, that is an unfair advantage. But a 10% gain in horsepower (well, twice again as much if you buy into my argument the kinematics of lining up the rear cv joints) is not enough to overcome the choppiness of Can-am's T&A, or whatever it's rear suspension is called, compared to the smoother and less complex progressive trailing arm design of the RZR's. The fact that Polaris just throws money at the problem doesn't hurt their fight either.

Let 'em race, or don't let 'em race due to the turbo's is just a fundamental argument in my opinion. If it weren't for the vulnerability and lack of power in the drivetrain, believe it or not, the Wildcat's provide the best beginning platform to build from. However, they are a non-issue, as they appeared to show little interest in competing against the top two mfg's.

That's my 24 ounces worth.

 

[crazywatson]

Btw does crack make you defensive? I'm not sure. Lol