How will the Turbo Maverick affect UTV racing?

[JoeyD23]

So let me ask this. You do agree that we should all ask BITD / WORCS / LOORRS to throw out their rule of NO TURBOS in favor of a new factory machine? You think its fair to then race NATURALLY ASPIRATED engines against FORCED INDUCTION? Is there another class in racing that allows this? I am unaware if so.

Class 7200 turbo vs n/a yes. class 1500 turbo vs n/a yes. class trophy truck yes turbo vs n/a yes. Eco boost motor danzio twin turbo auzzie crazy turbo v6 and your brother pistol I believe too all have turbo and race against n/a motors. drag racing turbo vs nos motors yes. Loorrs I could care less about they though the utv out. but maybe the turbo cars could be faster then the super buggies. worcs that easy make a factory turbo class like they did with the 1000. Bitd/score run what the factory produces the desert will have the last laugh. Rules suck balls. Yes bitd lets turbo race were have you been[/QUOTE]


2 of the 3 classes you mentioned are unlimited.

 

[the stripping shop]

2 of the 3 classes you mentioned are unlimited.[/QUOTE]

you ask if there were any other classes. Didn't realize class 1500 and 1400 didn't count.7200 class is paving the way for turbo.what about drag racing turbo are changing that complete seen. What about Dakar isn't that what robby can't beat those dam turbo cars. you asked if there were any other classess

 

[JoeyD23]

I did ask and your response other than 7200 is an unlimited class. It leans towards putting turbo UTVs with an unlimited Utv class.

 

[badassmav]

I can't believe Reid is not talking about the bigger clutches,the intakes,the dual fans on the clutches, the bigger shocks mounted to the lower arms. Everything he is fighting looks like the addressed it. Now don't get me wrong Iam a Polaris guy I own a brand new 1000 but Can am did a really good job addressing a lot of there issue on this model. Now don't quote me on this but has the Joey d not driven one yet because I would expect one hell of an arcticle just saying.

I just learned about the new release along with the rest of you guys. Although Cory, the Murrays, and Lecrecia have all been test driving them for some time now, we have been kept out of the "insiders" loop. I don't know why BRP seems to despise us. But they do. Probably my fault. I don't sugarcoat their shortcomings in regards to efficient engineering. Sometimes, the truth hurts, I guess. I've been, and still am, too busy with my own fish fry over here to absorb the changes in their new chassis. The only advanced notice I got about anything was right after the Can-am guys met with me at the Mint 400 this year. A couple of weeks later, Marc told me that the new Mavericks were going to have the rear diff moved back. Looks like someone was listening to Captain Obvious!

 

[dnf736]

So for the Mint it will read UTV PRO, SR1, PRO 850, SPT, TURBO?
Just what desert racing needs, another class.

 

[the stripping shop]

So your saying when Polaris release there turbo car you want them in the unlimited class not the pro class. I say no let the desert be the major factor. I guess your question is what other class race turbo vs n/a in the desert that is not unlimited class 1400/1500. 2400 class/7200 class/8000/8100 allow turbos just because some don't take advantage or don't want to change from what is working doesn't mean they can't use it. turbo are the future ask your Polaris rep. If you don't think so ask your self how are they going to get more power out of 1000cc if they cant go past that same with all the over sea stuff 800cc how to get more out of it.

 

[JoeyD23]

So for the Mint it will read UTV PRO, SR1, PRO 850, SPT, TURBO?
Just what desert racing needs, another class.

I think how it would read based on conversations I had a couple weeks ago PRIOR to any turbo release would be:

UTV Pro, UTV Unlimited, and UTV Sportsman

850 will be going away and so will the DSR1 designation. 850 would be forced to race the UTV Pro class or Sportsman and DSR1 would be in a new Unlimited class which is where I think the Turbo class should be placed for the time being. At least until there are 1. enough people racing the Can-Am Turbo to make a better case for racing the pro class or 2. Polaris and others also release a Turbo thus leveling the playing field.

 

[JoeyD23]

So your saying when Polaris release there turbo car you want them in the unlimited class not the pro class. I say no let the desert be the major factor. I guess your question is what other class race turbo vs n/a in the desert that is not unlimited class 1400/1500. 2400 class/7200 class/8000/8100 allow turbos just because some don't take advantage or don't want to change from what is working doesn't mean they can't use it. turbo are the future ask your Polaris rep. If you don't think so ask your self how are they going to get more power out of 1000cc if they cant go past that same with all the over sea stuff 800cc how to get more out of it.

You make valid points. I can't argue what you are saying. I was asking about other classes because I am not aware of who allows what. I ASSumed only the unlimited classes and a couple other classes that race eco-tech and eco-boosts allowed for turbos.

I am aware of the turbo and its place with UTVs. I know its not going anywhere and this is only the beginning. But what I also know is 1000cc is not the limit. It may be where OEMs are limiting themselves currently but there is no rule that says they cannot build bigger, I know that for a fact from a credible OEM source.

If Polaris introduced a Turbo tomorrow I am not sure how I would feel and if it would change my opinion of things. I lean towards the side that they should all race in the unlimited class so that way we know how they stack up, how many people plan to run them, etc.. I will say, if Polaris was to introduce a turbo then it would negate the un-fair turbo advantage argument that I am making.

I want to be clear. I am only arguing these sides for the sake of debate. Its healthy discussion for us to have. I have no dog in the fight. Maybe all the racers say F-it let them run and I am way off base, I dunno. But I am just trying to have the conversation and bring up all the positives and negatives of how the Turbo affects the current state of UTV racing.

 

[Kalop]

I'm not feeling the Polaris love I guess... just NOT favoring the wait to poor polaris comes out w/turbo vibe... I'm not sure why it just doesn't feel right. WTF do I know... thankfully I'm not in charge of racing classes... I'd be like "step off the podium if you can't hang !!" lol

Very interesting debate... I'm off to get my popcorn now.

EDIT - Would this theoretical UNLIMITED UTV class allow z1 or apex swaps ?

 

[JoeyD23]

I'm not feeling the Polaris love I guess... just NOT favoring the wait to poor polaris comes out w/turbo vibe... I'm not sure why it just doesn't feel right. WTF do I know... thankfully I'm not in charge of racing classes... I'd be like "step off the podium if you can't hang !!" lol

Very interesting debate... I'm off to get my popcorn now.

EDIT - Would this theoretical UNLIMITED UTV class allow z1 or apex swaps ?

I don't think anyone is saying the only way to race the turbo in PRO UTV is to wait for Polaris.

IF Polaris were to introduce a Turbo then it would negate any argument of an unfair advantage that remember is also AGAINST the current rules which state NO TURBOs in the PRO UTV class.

Again, no one is saying, as a matter of fact I seem to be the only one playing devils advocate, lol.. but no one is saying this is unfair for Polaris racers. Hell, I doubt guys like Kiger, Schueler, etc even give a shit.

Again, even if Polaris had a turbo I still lean towards them being forced to run in the Unlimited class initially.

As for the Unlimited class, the way I understand it, it would allow for any UTV with engine swaps, etc as long as they still remained within the proper width, length, pivot point, etc rule requirements. The DSR1 class already had an Apex race in it I think..

 

[sand shark]

What if Polaris throws a curveball and goes supercharger?


Just because you are potentially the fastest does not mean you are going to win a desert race. Lots of components have to hold up besides just the engine to be competitive. The current Maverick is technically at a disadvantage now as it does not have the top speed the XP1000 has in desert racing. Does not seem to put them at a complete disadvantage.

The current factory backed XP1000 team cars have more than 110hp and top speeds close to 80mph? Not that any of them can maintain that speed for long periods due to belt issues.

I am not sure the factory set turbo is going to have that much of an advantage, if allowed to race with the current crop of pro XP1000s. I think belt life and other components are going to limit it.

Right now the durability of the turbo motor is unknown in desert racing and until they are allowed to race no one will really no if there is that much of an advantage.

I say let them race and see what happens.

 

[Queen Racing]

I guarantee there is a reason why it makes much less hp than one of my Naturally Aspirated race engines do! The rest of the car will not hold up to the power that a turbo car can make if properly set up. Yes it it cool to have a "TURBO" motor, but I would much rather have a 140hp to ground NA motor any day for desert or short course racing. If I built a very mild 250hp turbo car and planned to race the Mint, lol that suspension and every moving part would most likely not make it past the first 100 miles... For the dunes, turbos are bad ass! But I don't think they will ever make it in bitd, unless we started building 2500-3000 lbs beefy cars. But then the power to weight ratio is back to stock. where is the advantage??

 

[Bajaxp]

The last two post were pretty spot on.

I will add to this, if you have ever driven a regular desert buggy with a 4 our 5 speed trans, you will notice when you drive a UTV that there is a slight CVT lag. I have also driven many turbo UTV's and while they are STUPID FUN in the sand the turbo lag coupled with the CVT lag would not be fun in the desert.

My 2 pesos or cervesas.

 

[the stripping shop]

I will add to this, if you have ever driven a regular desert buggy with a 4 our 5 speed trans, you will notice when you drive a UTV that there is a slight CVT lag. I have also driven many turbo UTV's and while they are STUPID FUN in the sand the turbo lag coupled with the CVT lag would not be fun in the desert.

Zero lag and after your brother joey d drives it he will tell you the same its a tourque monster. Everything you want out of your utv it has power wise. I would say its power on demand.

 

[JoeyD23]

 

[sand shark]

Lol

 

[Queen Racing]

Heck my car in V2R did not even make it 30 miles before it destroyed the fist of 2 clutches!! That is with only 147 hp to the wheels, a turbo car with ecu and built motor will easily be 200 hp... They will never finish races.. JMO

 

[UTV Racing Association]

Of course I have been reading all of the comments on this subject as well as having one on one discussions with some of the UTV racers. Please feel free to email me with any comments or concerns utvra@hotmail.com. I can tell you no decisions have been made on what class to place the new Maverick Max Turbo in. When I make my decision I promise it will be in the best interest of all UTV racing. As we all know most all UTV racing rules are is modeled after the BITD rules. I feel I have proved over the last 9 years of managing the rules, that I make good decisions for the class. I would like to share 1 of my thoughts; Since the beginning of UTV racing, the factories have produced engines with more horse power and larger CC's each and every year. (I may be misinformed, but I was told that the Federal DOT requires UTV's to be 1000cc and under to be classified as a "All Terrain Vehicle" which is what UTV are classified. If factory engines are over 1000cc the vehicle is classified as a car and required to have windshields, wipers, turn signals etc....) So if I'm correct we will not see UTV's with engines over 1000cc. so back to my thought, the new Maverick Turbo is 121hp. If another manufacture i.e. Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Arctic Cat, Polaris etc... were to release a UTV with a 121hp that did not have a turbo would we be discussing what class to put it in? Would we feel that that big of a hp jump warrants the UTV to be in a different class? Should we require racers with after market built engines that have a certain amount of hp be required to race in a different class? Since the beginning the "Pro Production" class has been designed to be just that, a production based race UTV. Is it time to require all UTV's to race with stock engines and only allow a 5hp spread? There are so many ways we could go with this. Should how the factories make hp be the deciding factor on what class the UTV races in? Over the years many UTV's by several factories have been released with 1 or more components that could be seen as a "unfair advantage" to the previous built UTV's. I believe that racing has driven the manufactures to produce
better "sport UTV's". I was told that the RZR would not have been produced had it not been for the creation of UTV racing. I'm sure we will see manufactures continue to produce more powerful UTV's and this will continue to build the "Pro Production" class. No body was to go Slower! In the future we could see direct injection, sequential transmissions, superchargers, etc... do we make a "production" class for all these different components? I feel the "Pro Production" class has continued to grow and is as big as it is, is because over the years we have stuck to the original "spirt of the class" a Production based race UTV. Ok so thats my thought. A decision will be made by the middle of October on which class the Maverick Turbo will race in and I will keep you all informed. I encourage all UTV racers to continue to post their thoughts here. Sincerely Cory S ( the self proclaimed "God Father of UTV Racing" )

 

[BrArmor]

Maybe the rules limit driver/builder to factory components, geometry, dimensions, etc. and let them find that happy medium between solid parts and HP that will let them finish races....?

 

[JoeyD23]

Of course I have been reading all of the comments on this subject as well as having one on one discussions with some of the UTV racers. Please feel free to email me with any comments or concerns utvra@hotmail.com. I can tell you no decisions have been made on what class to place the new Maverick Max Turbo in. When I make my decision I promise it will be in the best interest of all UTV racing. As we all know most all UTV racing rules are is modeled after the BITD rules. I feel I have proved over the last 9 years of managing the rules, that I make good decisions for the class.

Cory you have done a fantastic job!! Keep up the great work!

I would like to share 1 of my thoughts; Since the beginning of UTV racing, the factories have produced engines with more horse power and larger CC's each and every year. (I may be misinformed, but I was told that the Federal DOT requires UTV's to be 1000cc and under to be classified as a "All Terrain Vehicle" which is what UTV are classified. If factory engines are over 1000cc the vehicle is classified as a car and required to have windshields, wipers, turn signals etc....) So if I'm correct we will not see UTV's with engines over 1000cc.

I have also heard this, but I know for a fact larger CC engines are being developed and I was told by an OEM source, credible, that there is NO limit that they need to abide by. Maybe they are willing to lose the "ATV" designation over this, but at some point we will see larger than 1000cc.. for now, this is not important


so back to my thought, the new Maverick Turbo is 121hp. If another manufacture i.e. Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Arctic Cat, Polaris etc... were to release a UTV with a 121hp that did not have a turbo would we be discussing what class to put it in?

NO we wouldn't.. The reason this discussion is happening is BECAUSE OF A TURBO

Would we feel that that big of a hp jump warrants the UTV to be in a different class?

NO we wouldn't. An increase in HP has no bearing on the rules currently. It is within a certain CC that has a current class and therefore this scenario would be irrelevant for discusion.


Should we require racers with after market built engines that have a certain amount of hp be required to race in a different class?

NO we shouldn't.. UNLESS of course the rules stated otherwise which currently do not. This again is a mute point of view here and has nothing to do with TURBOS

Since the beginning the "Pro Production" class has been designed to be just that, a production based race UTV. Is it time to require all UTV's to race with stock engines and only allow a 5hp spread?

NO and no one has suggested such a thing. The question and debate of this thread is where does a TURBO machine fall into racing. Factory or NOT the Rules state NO TURBOS in the Pro UTV class.

There are so many ways we could go with this. Should how the factories make hp be the deciding factor on what class the UTV races in?

YES it should, especially if how they make the additional HP is in conflict with the CURRENT RULES like this scenario is now.

Over the years many UTV's by several factories have been released with 1 or more components that could be seen as a "unfair advantage" to the previous built UTV's. I believe that racing has driven the manufactures to produce
better "sport UTV's".

What might this be? I don't know of anything that has been introduced other than CC size and not having a class yet that would have been an "unfair advantage"? CC increase is nature of the beast, however I think we are all pretty safe with 1000cc for now.. I guess you could argue that when the Arctic Cat Wildcat came out it had a ton more suspension over any Polaris, Can-Am, Kawasaki, etc that was currently racing (production wise)

I was told that the RZR would not have been produced had it not been for the creation of UTV racing. I'm sure we will see manufactures continue to produce more powerful UTV's and this will continue to build the "Pro Production" class. No body was to go Slower! In the future we could see direct injection, sequential transmissions, superchargers, etc... do we make a "production" class for all these different components?

I don't know, do we??? Thats what we are discussing?? Do you create a new class or do you change the rules to constantly cater to each new machine that is developed?? At what point do we (the racing community) begin to dictate what is and isn't raced or do we allow the OEMs to dictate this?? Rules state NO TURBOS, Can-Am made one anyway, are you willing to change your / our rules because of this??


I feel the "Pro Production" class has continued to grow and is as big as it is, is because over the years we have stuck to the original "spirt of the class" a Production based race UTV.

This is true, but now we are getting into a realm of needing to change our rules. This isn't just adding a new class due to CC increase. This new machine is in direct conflict with the current rule of the Pro UTV class. It is important decision on your part. Your affiliation with Can-Am is tricky as well. I know your heart is in the right place and you will do whats right for the class but you do have a hard time because you have to seperate Cory the Can-Am Sponsored Racer from Cory the BITD UTV Class Representative.


Ok so thats my thought. A decision will be made by the middle of October on which class the Maverick Turbo will race in and I will keep you all informed. I encourage all UTV racers to continue to post their thoughts here. Sincerely Cory S ( the self proclaimed "God Father of UTV Racing" )

Thanks for taking the time to contribute Cory. my responses are above in red and again are only for the sake of the spirit of discussion.

Though I am not a racer (consistently) I feel I have earned my stripes to have an opinion on this subject and any other that pertains to racing. I think most would agree that you find few in this sport who have put more time, effort and $$ into covering and bettering our sport. Not just at BITD but at SCORE, WORCS, LOORRS, ETC ETC ETC. My point is, I have just as much to gain or lose as anyone in our sport. Like Cory and many others, I care about its direction and how we grow.