**ATTN: Racers/Teams** UTV Desert Rules Discussion

[Bajaxp]

You're killing me Mike! Remember that a RZR 4 weighs WAY more than a RZR and has a turning radius of a freight train. Let's keep the rules simple and go race! BTW...I will be at the SSSS on Saturday afternoon if you want to discuss further.

I don't think we should come to conclusions so soon, give people some time to formulate their opinions and ideas and post them here. Once we have given it some time then we can take it to the UTVRA, BITD, SNORE, ETC for their buy in. Remember at the end of the day it is the race promoters decision and all we can do is help influence it.

I know I have quite a few ideas on what should be done, heck I was one of the guys that put the original rules together with Cory. I just don't have time right now to get my ideas down on paper.

The way I see it there are only a few cars that compete in desert races on a semi regular basis. Dividing the cars up is going to give us a very small classes.

The other question that should be asked if we are going to rewrite the rules is should a RZR 4 be in the same class as a Teryx, Rhino, or RZR because of the difference in the wheel base?

I've started to put together a list of current racers. Feel free to ad to it. I'm curious to see how many cars are truly out there and how often they race and what type of car they have.

Pro UTV
Jason Murray Rhino
Brandon Schueler RZR
Sean Lindberg Rhino
Jerome Vinagro RZR
Yancey Reynolds
Brian Thomas
Cory Sappington Rhino
Mike Cook RZR 4
Ricky Leard
Jeff Furnell RZR
Ronny Awtry
Lacrecia Beurrier Rhino
Austin Anderson
Michael Lasher Teryx
Pierre Perret RZR
Matt Parks RZR 4

SR1
Joseph Leeper
Bobby Melkesian

 

[tatum]

I vote that Kawi,Yamaha,and Polaris all come out with a 1000 and we go racing! No seriously, the 3 class system seems the fairest and hopefully you get enough turn out to have several people in your class.

 

[Crowdog]

I vote that Kawi,Yamaha,and Polaris all come out with a 1000 and we go racing! No seriously, the 3 class system seems the fairest and hopefully you get enough turn out to have several people in your class.

We can only wish....

My main concern with the three classes is the lack of participation in each of the classes to make it a race.

 

[FabMan]

Guy's just to throw in the way's the world karting assocation was set up when my son and I were racing. Every class was set by engine spec rules and weight. I know everyone hates thinking about maybe having to add weight to their machine but it usually is not that much. I alway's built them under scale weight and added 15lb.s of ballast that I could move around the kart to help with handling. We raced dirt ovals and on a nights that we had a heavy track, I could set the kart up without the ballast because we did not weigh until we left the track and would have at least 15 lb.s of mud on them. If you win alot and someone wanted to protest your engine, it cost $50.00. If the engine went through tech and found illigal for the class it was running, the protestee got his $50.00 back and the illigal competitor was docked his winnings for the night and docked season points, if it was legal, the owner of the protested engine got the $50.00 and his engine back in boxes. Easier to tech a kart engine than pull out a UTV engine though.

You are right about the too many classes. With small car counts they are boring to race, and even more boring for the spectators to watch. Each class ran 2 heats , a semi and a feature. The more classes you have the harder it is and longer it takes to put on a show. The fewer the better, bottom line. If I was racing in a class of 18 it was fun as hell and we put on a good show. With just a few classes The spectators will get to know and recognize the guy's that do well. If you have 10 classes that run no one can remember from heat to heat who the hell is who and what class is what. Another thing you can do with the engine rules is like the stock guy's do. determine what it would cost to build the engine for each class. Once that is set, I can buy any of my competitors engines for that price. That keeps the guy's from putting together a $30,000 engine and running it in a class with a set limit at $15,000. Maybe if someone know's someone with a World Karting Association rule book or the Internation Karting association rule book, someone could thumb through that and it may help in setting up classes. hope this helps.

 

[tatum]

We can only wish....

My main concern with the three classes is the lack of participation in each of the classes to make it a race.

I can see the one class with a weight ruling but to put the street bike cars in with the regular UTVs might not be good racing.

 

[Darryl89]

I can see the points made about having too many classes, but if weight penalties are required, they need to be reasonable. I would say car with fuel, less driver (and co-driver where applicable).
Having less classes definitely makes for more exciting races.

How did the SR1 cars do at Snowflake? Did they seem to have any advantage in the desert with their higher top speeds? I know one SR1 car hit 116mph. Might not be a fair match on courses with wide open throttle lake beds and such.

(edit: Tatum had the same thought I had)

 

[Crowdog]

I can see the one class with a weight ruling but to put the street bike cars in with the regular UTVs might not be good racing.

Any engine swaps should be in a different class.

 

[tatum]

I heard Bobby ran faster than the trucks and buggys.

 

[Rusty5150]

I heard Bobby ran faster than the trucks and buggys.

116.9 to be exact. His car was ripping.

 

[chad549]

i plan on racing in bitd series in 2011 with a rzr 4 and also know of one other. i like the idea of pro 800 or less , pro 800 to 1000 , and 1001 + and alt motors in sportsman . and run them all togather. and let them weigh what they weigh

 

[COGNITO]

i am not a racer yet, but working on it.

my opinion is give the single cylinder cars a weight break, and twins have to weigh more, the kawi already is more, but the razor would have to add obviously.

as far as sr1 class, the no reverse and weller only mounting kit isnt to fair in my opinion. why not allow reverse? it is gonna rob power and weigh more so it isnt an advantage unless u get stuck. as far as motor placement, let it move around, the other classes dont disallow moving the motor as far as i am aware.

 

[Big Guy]

No matter what you do you will be taking from one racer and giving to another someone will say its not fair. I say if you want to be competitive then you buy the UTV that seems to be the most competitive in your mind. If you chose a rhino 660 then dont punish the guy that has the rzr, you will just have to do motor work for more power.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

So I have noticed that there are 3 Rhinos in the top 7 in BITD points. I also run a Rhino and none of us are complaining about the rules. I agree that at some point we probably need to address some of this, however, if you were planning on racing BITD, why did you build a big bore car? Run your cars at 800 cc and come race with us. We love the competition! It's not about horsepower. It's about the ability to drive and keep your car together to finish the race. See you out there!

 

[Darryl89]

So I have noticed that there are 3 Rhinos in the top 7 in BITD points. I also run a Rhino and none of us are complaining about the rules. I agree that at some point we probably need to address some of this, however, if you were planning on racing BITD, why did you build a big bore car? Run your cars at 800 cc and come race with us. We love the competition! It's not about horsepower. It's about the ability to drive and keep your car together to finish the race. See you out there!

Actually, the big bore cars such as Prowler XTZs are allowed in BITD, they just have to weigh over 2100lbs with fuel, tools and both driver/co-driver (from rulebook dated 1/1/2010). You'll see one in the BITD series this coming year... I know, it's mine... I don't mind having the weight penalty really. I agree, survival is the key in most desert races, but the discussion is what rules should there be and what classes.
And yes, I like my big 951cc Prowler and the potential it has for power, much more than any 695cc or even 760cc will ever be able to produce and still be reliable.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

Actually, the big bore cars such as Prowler XTZs are allowed in BITD, they just have to weigh over 2100lbs with fuel, tools and both driver/co-driver (from rulebook dated 1/1/2010). You'll see one in the BITD series this coming year... I know, it's mine... I don't mind having the weight penalty really. I agree, survival is the key in most desert races, but the discussion is what rules should there be and what classes.
And yes, I like my big 951cc Prowler and the potential it has for power, much more than any 695cc or even 760cc will ever be able to produce and still be reliable.

I know the rules and I'm pretty sure I know what we are discussing here. We are not discussing the production 1000's. We are discussing big bore on smaller cc motors. My point is: if you want to race pro, race it the way it was written. It was written that way so that those of us with single cylinder engines don't have to go buy a new car every year to compete with the new vehicles coming out on the market. I know I can't afford to do that and I'm sure most of the guys here can't. Stop computer racing and come out to the desert and show us what you got in your hot rod Cat. Why wait til 2011. There is a race coming up in December.

 

[07fj]

i am not a racer yet, but working on it.

my opinion is give the single cylinder cars a weight break, and twins have to weigh more, the kawi already is more, but the razor would have to add obviously.

as far as sr1 class, the no reverse and weller only mounting kit isnt to fair in my opinion. why not allow reverse? it is gonna rob power and weigh more so it isnt an advantage unless u get stuck. as far as motor placement, let it move around, the other classes dont disallow moving the motor as far as i am aware.

agreed, but I have not seen the weller kit as a rule beyond Short course so far. and should not be IMO, but a good place to start it has been. the no FNR box was a dollar issue.

No matter what you do you will be taking from one racer and giving to another someone will say its not fair. I say if you want to be competitive then you buy the UTV that seems to be the most competitive in your mind. If you chose a rhino 660 then dont punish the guy that has the rzr, you will just have to do motor work for more power.

reliable and big cc single cylinder do not go together. period

in your thinking though, why punish another car if he/they can build it lighter?

we always had to add weight to the flyin banana, when others were way over minimum weight.

Actually, the big bore cars such as Prowler XTZs are allowed in BITD, they just have to weigh over 2100lbs with fuel, tools and both driver/co-driver (from rulebook dated 1/1/2010). You'll see one in the BITD series this coming year... I know, it's mine... I don't mind having the weight penalty really. I agree, survival is the key in most desert races, but the discussion is what rules should there be and what classes.
And yes, I like my big 951cc Prowler and the potential it has for power, much more than any 695cc or even 760cc will ever be able to produce and still be reliable.[/QUOTE]

exactly. however I think the cars should be weighed without driver-co driver, because for teams that switch out, you could be weighing in with the llargest pair and racing somewhere with the lightest pair (= advantage)

 

[Darryl89]

I know the rules and I'm pretty sure I know what we are discussing here. We are not discussing the production 1000's. We are discussing big bore on smaller cc motors. My point is: if you want to race pro, race it the way it was written. It was written that way so that those of us with single cylinder engines don't have to go buy a new car every year to compete with the new vehicles coming out on the market. I know I can't afford to do that and I'm sure most of the guys here can't. Stop computer racing and come out to the desert and show us what you got in your hot rod Cat. Why wait til 2011. There is a race coming up in December.

It's still being built, and you never know, it may make the December race... but like you, I'm doing this out of my pocket for the most part and can't dump a bunch of money into it all at once. Take a good look at the front, you'll see plenty of the rear soon...

I think the big bores on smaller motors are fine, they aren't really different than a Commander or a Prowler XTZ. But what is wrong with having 3 classes, Pro 800cc and less, Pro 801 to 1000 and Sportsman.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

It's still being built, and you never know, it may make the December race... but like you, I'm doing this out of my pocket for the most part and can't dump a bunch of money into it all at once. Take a good look at the front, you'll see plenty of the rear soon...

I think the big bores on smaller motors are fine, they aren't really different than a Commander or a Prowler XTZ. But what is wrong with having 3 classes, Pro 800cc and less, Pro 801 to 1000 and Sportsman.

Very nice looking car! I don't know about seeing if from the rear, maybe my rearview mirror!HA HA But at any rate we want you out there racing. The more we have the better. Have you any thoughts on being able to come race the SNORE series if they let us in? The problem with having more classes is getting enough people in them to make it work. I think that is what is what most of us are tying to say. I have no problem with you having your own class, but that takes money out of the purse and so on. I know that we will eventually work it out and I won't have the reliable Rhino forever. I'm sure I will be racing the Teryx some next year also.

 

[Darryl89]

Very nice looking car! I don't know about seeing if from the rear, maybe my rearview mirror!HA HA But at any rate we want you out there racing. The more we have the better. Have you any thoughts on being able to come race the SNORE series if they let us in? The problem with having more classes is getting enough people in them to make it work. I think that is what is what most of us are tying to say. I have no problem with you having your own class, but that takes money out of the purse and so on. I know that we will eventually work it out and I won't have the reliable Rhino forever. I'm sure I will be racing the Teryx some next year also.

Thanks, I am chomping at the bit to get out there and race. I spent many years racing 2 wheeled in mx and desert both. After many years haitus, I'm back in it.
I will try to make the SNORE series too if they open it up. Biggest thing is I own (or should I say, it owns me) a business that is taking alot of my time right now and I need more sponsors for the car. I'm sure once it makes a few runs, the sponsors will take note.
Putting the big bores in with the smaller cc cars and giving them a weight penalty is fine with me. I just see the SR1's being the problem. But right now, they fall into Sportsman, which works too.
But if there were enough, then it might be nice to have the cc's broken down into different classes. I can respect what is being said about diluting the classes down to where there are not enough cars in each class.
And if I wasn't an AC dealer, the Teryx would probably be looking pretty good to me right now.

 

[tatum]

It seems that the weight rule would allow the most people to race and keep the classes to a minimum.A lot of people already have 840 Teryxs or 850 rzrs and resizing costs money.If the blew a motor then maybe they would have a option of going back down.Maybe there car is already built and is heavy and they want to go bigger then they have options without spending more money.