**ATTN: Racers/Teams** UTV Desert Rules Discussion

[Bajaxp]

It seems that the weight rule would allow the most people to race and keep the classes to a minimum.A lot of people already have 840 Teryxs or 850 rzrs and resizing costs money.If the blew a motor then maybe they would have a option of going back down.Maybe there car is already built and is heavy and they want to go bigger then they have options without spending more money.

Do you really know of 'a lot of people' who have race ready, BITD legal, 840 Terex's and 850 RZRs? I don't know of any. And certainly we shouldn't be making rules around these anomolies. Honestly most people don't have a clue what their rig weighs. My guess is that, that very nice Cat that that 'that cat' posted will weigh in at over 1800 lbs, full of fuel, spares and race ready, no occupants. So where is the weight penalty unless the 'Cat Dude' is a midget and has a dwarf co-dog.

But the good news is that most seem to agree with the idea of a 800cc and below Pro Class, a 801cc to 1000cc Pro class and sportsman (including the Rotax and motorcyce engine swap rigs). I don't think any of these classes should have weight penalties. Too hard to police for BITD, SNORE, and SCORE. But I think if a 'sub-800cc' wins the overall they deserve the overall win coin $$$. And they will beat all or most of the high cc, high hp rigs...trust me (until the big cc guys figure it out).

 

[Darryl89]

Do you really know of 'a lot of people' who have race ready, BITD legal, 840 Terex's and 850 RZRs? I don't know of any. And certainly we shouldn't be making rules around these anomolies. Honestly most people don't have a clue what their rig weighs. My guess is that, that very nice Cat that that 'that cat' posted will weigh in at over 1800 lbs, full of fuel, spares and race ready, no occupants. So where is the weight penalty unless the 'Cat Dude' is a midget and has a dwarf co-dog.

But the good news is that most seem to agree with the idea of a 800cc and below Pro Class, a 801cc to 1000cc Pro class and sportsman (including the Rotax and motorcyce engine swap rigs). I don't think any of these classes should have weight penalties. Too hard to police for BITD, SNORE, and SCORE. But I think if a 'sub-800cc' wins the overall they deserve the overall win coin $$$. And they will beat all or most of the high cc, high hp rigs...trust me (until the big cc guys figure it out).

You are more than a bit high on the weight of my XTZ. We've been keeping track of the weight and will end up having to add weights to it.
And hey, how did you know I'm a midget and have a dwarf co-dog...

As for the rest of it... (for those that are old war movie fans)

 

[Bajaxp]

Ummm...whatever.

But remember Amigo, the weight of a semi-finished car in your driveway and one ready to race are way different.

Not 'negative wave' but not my first rodeo. Yours?

When you win...gloat.

 

[Darryl89]

Ummm...whatever.

But remember Amigo, the weight of a semi-finished car in your driveway and one ready to race are way different.

Not 'negative wave' but not my first rodeo. Yours?

When you win...gloat.

Not my first rodeo either. Just been awhile since. But yeah, they tend to gain weight pretty fast, but 1800 is a bit high still.
But still, I'd rather run a big bore with mild mods than trying to squeeze big horses out of a smaller motor and suffer reliability.
Arctic Cat was doing pretty good in SCORE and BITD both with the XTZ while Bipolar Racing was running it, but they separated from AC. The XTZ that was relatively stock other than shocks, cage and beadlocked wheels won the 2008 Baja 1000 and was in the top 3 in the BITD. It missed winning the 2009 V2R due to fuel pump problems. But still took 3rd. Pretty respectable for a near stock machine, oh, and it was a big bore.
Last year's Baja 1000 was won by DFR with their 840 Nessy, again the big engines held their own. So I don't think there is anything that says the smaller bore engines will always win.

Time to let go and let this thread get back to it's original discussion. Sorry for the sidetrack....

 

[Crowdog]

Do you really know of 'a lot of people' who have race ready, BITD legal, 840 Terex's and 850 RZRs? I don't know of any. And certainly we shouldn't be making rules around these anomolies. Honestly most people don't have a clue what their rig weighs. My guess is that, that very nice Cat that that 'that cat' posted will weigh in at over 1800 lbs, full of fuel, spares and race ready, no occupants. So where is the weight penalty unless the 'Cat Dude' is a midget and has a dwarf co-dog.

But the good news is that most seem to agree with the idea of a 800cc and below Pro Class, a 801cc to 1000cc Pro class and sportsman (including the Rotax and motorcyce engine swap rigs). I don't think any of these classes should have weight penalties. Too hard to police for BITD, SNORE, and SCORE. But I think if a 'sub-800cc' wins the overall they deserve the overall win coin $$$. And they will beat all or most of the high cc, high hp rigs...trust me (until the big cc guys figure it out).

Me and Tech 3 to start. I race VORRA and Tech 3 races VORRA and just completed V2R in sportsman with their 840cc Teryx.

And the Muzzys 850cc kit just came out a few months back. I know Rob Muzzy was already approached by one racer that wanted to run it, but could not get an answer on whether they could run in the Pro class like the Prowler 1000.

 

[Darryl89]

Me and Tech 3 to start. I race VORRA and Tech 3 races VORRA and just completed V2R in sportsman with their 840cc Teryx.

And the Muzzys 850cc kit just came out a few months back. I know Rob Muzzy was already approached by one racer that wanted to run it, but could not get an answer on whether they could run in the Pro class like the Prowler 1000.

Hope they do. Does the Muzzy kit use the original heads? That may be the hold up since the rules state must use the original heads and cases. They need to rethink those rules some what and allow for big bore kits like the Muzzy's. It'd be awesome to see your Monster Energy Muzzy's Teryx out there running Jon.

It's the nature of man to want to build bigger, better and faster over time. Otherwise, we would still all be content with running only on foot over rough terrain rather than having motorized races. Yes, a person can ask, "where does it all stop?", but why send men to space, why build a car that can run 200mph on the street, why ...... Because we can...

And with the weight penalty, the big bores can run the same class as the smaller ones. Makes for more exciting racing until there are enough big and small cc machines to split the class.

Hey Jon, what does your Teryx weigh with tools and fuel?

 

[Big Guy]

Actually, the big bore cars such as Prowler XTZs are allowed in BITD, they just have to weigh over 2100lbs with fuel, tools and both driver/co-driver (from rulebook dated 1/1/2010). You'll see one in the BITD series this coming year... I know, it's mine... I don't mind having the weight penalty really. I agree, survival is the key in most desert races, but the discussion is what rules should there be and what classes.
And yes, I like my big 951cc Prowler and the potential it has for power, much more than any 695cc or even 760cc will ever be able to produce and still be reliable.

My rzr weighs in at 1675 race ready without driver and co driver. add driver and co dog and Im looking at 2055 lbs. Im not the only rzr that weighs this amount I know of 2 others that are within 100lbs of mine give or take. So I dont call having to weigh 2100lbs a "penalty".

 

[tatum]

Do you really know of 'a lot of people' who have race ready, BITD legal, 840 Terex's and 850 RZRs? I don't know of any. And certainly we shouldn't be making rules around these anomolies. Honestly most people don't have a clue what their rig weighs. My guess is that, that very nice Cat that that 'that cat' posted will weigh in at over 1800 lbs, full of fuel, spares and race ready, no occupants. So where is the weight penalty unless the 'Cat Dude' is a midget and has a dwarf co-dog.

But the good news is that most seem to agree with the idea of a 800cc and below Pro Class, a 801cc to 1000cc Pro class and sportsman (including the Rotax and motorcyce engine swap rigs). I don't think any of these classes should have weight penalties. Too hard to police for BITD, SNORE, and SCORE. But I think if a 'sub-800cc' wins the overall they deserve the overall win coin $$$. And they will beat all or most of the high cc, high hp rigs...trust me (until the big cc guys figure it out).

I dont know a lot of people that have race ready UTVs of any size for BITD etc.I thought the idea was to get the number count up by not excluding people.Since you are the pro maybe we should leave it up to you.

 

[Big Guy]

Dosent Lasher have a muzzy 840 kit in his teryx??? I think I remember reading that somewhere? Anyway yeah if they want to add a pro 801-1000cc class then I guess thats fine but I dont see the benifite in that at all. If there is only 2-3 in your class your check is going to be small if you win. I would think it would be better to meet the weight requierment and race with the big boys. We still need to discuse the wheel base issue??? Im not too worried about it Im looking forward to racing against the "bobsled" I think longer has some advantages but also some disadvantages its a give and take. We will see in Parker in Oct.

 

[jaggedx]

Well Here is my 2 Cents for what it's worth.

First of all, to date I think everyone has to agree that BITD has had the largest following for consistent UTV racing. There have been some other series out there that have come and gone and then there are some local orgs like whiplash who get great turnouts at some of their races. Lucas has done well with UTV's but clearly that type of racing is not for everyone. We have raced evey BITD race since the first Parker 250 race in 05. We started out in a Rhino and then went to Polaris in 07. We have raced in a couple other series here and there just for fun. We have seen racers come and go. Some have taken the intended path of moving up to a larger class, some have moved to other venues do to location or cost and some have just quit for a number of reasons. I think the UTV racing class is still a great opportunity to enter into the sport of off road racing.

We all should remember that this is an entry level class of racing. The fact that manufacturers are answering the plee's of their customers to build faster and better machines with larger motors only makes the sport more exciting in my opinion.

So what about the classes debate?

Here is my opinion (repeat, opinion) Don't everyone freak out until you read my resoning.

1) Raise the max cc to 1000 and keep one pro class with no weight limits or minimums. explained: manufacturers will not be likely to build actual UTV's with much larger engines do to many legal ramifications. That being said, The 1000 cc UTV will quickly become the standard of the industry. In the spirit of the UTV class, keep the rules like they are as far as Factory engines, factory main frames, Factory pick up points ect. These rules have produced some very cool and inovative race vehicles. It keeps things in a box so to speak and it really does keep the cars on a level playing field. Enforce the safety rules! UTV racing as a whole has a really good safety record. As for weight, I really beleive that if you follow the cage requirements as written it is very hard to build a featherlight car. Face it, racers are cheaters for the most part. it's all about building the best mousetrap but within the rules. On the other hand you can over build a car and end up with a fricking tank i.e. our first race rhino at 1800# Racers are going to tweak their motors until the end of time, that is what racing is. just keep it inside the rules. If we are forced to start checking CC's at races it will deter racers and racing organizations. Now I know the Rhino guys don't think that is fair. Fact is, I know a couple rhinos out there (Cory) who's cars are way faster than our RZR. The larger CC motors should really have an advantage but the reality is that right now they are not proving that.

Bottom line here is that the funnest racing we have ever had have been with the most racers. The more UTV's the more fun we will all have and the sweeter the pot. Way more fun for the spectators. face it UTV racers have the most enthusiastic fans of all classes.

2) leave the sportsman class for those who want to race for fun and trophies, Run what you Brung, go outside the box but keep it UTV like. And still keep it safe. To date, I don't remember a sportsman ever winning in a BITD event.

3) SR 1 Who cares? leave the class, it's well defined and if it ever becomes popular it will have it's own place. I think that if the SR-1 guys want to do something cool they would create a muli-venue series like trophy Lites and Jeepspeed does. They are fun to watch.And they look fun to race.

Again, The bottom line here is to get the class to grow. Splitting the class in to a bunch of smaller classes is not the answer. We have a pretty good set of safety rules to work with. Borrowing a quote from Cory Sappington. "design it, Build it, Race it"

I am sure there is plenty of other ideas out there but right now this would work for the guys who really want to race.

And don't forget a Rhino is currently leading the BITD points race.


BS JX

 

[chad549]

i think that is a great idea up to a 1000 pro class run them all togather would turn into larger venues good purse and lots of competition "sounds great " , as for me i,ve designed it its better than 1/2 built lookin forward to racin it .

 

[AZCourt]

First let me say I sisnt read the entire thread before posting so forgive me if someone else said this.

The way worcs rules are seems very fair to me. 700 and below, 701-800, and open.

Lets stock 700 and 686 rhinos and small prowler singles race each other, RZRs, teryx, new 800 commanders ect and stroker motor rhinos together, and open class for the 1000s.

 

[AZCourt]

From worcs site.

UTV Classes
UTV Classes
CLASSDISPLACEMENTNOTES
Class 1Max 1000ccMinimum 15 yrs old on first day of event. UTV must come with an OEM rear cargo bed. Must have a full roll cage.Any modification to any part of the UTV is allowed.

Class 2up to 850ccMinimum 15 yrs old on first day of event. Production based class. UTV must come with an OEM rear cargo bed. Must have a full factory roll cage.

Class 3up to 705ccMinimum 15 yrs old on first day of event. Production based class. UTV must come with an OEM rear cargo bed. Must have a full factory roll cage.

Certainly we dont run a factory cage, but the fact that I race against rhinos with my rhino makes for good racing

 

[Crowdog]

I tend to agree with what Bill (Jagged X) said. Power hasn't had much of anything to do with who wins desert UTVs races so far. For those of us that haven't finished a race, the desert beat us. For those that do finish but didn't win, you were beat by a team that ran a cleaner race.

For now, I don't think we have enough racers in BITD and surely not VORRA to justify splitting classes up. Maybe down the line if we can grow the class.

The telling sign as Bill noted is a Rhino is currently on the points lead for 2010 BITD.

Got to fininsh each race and every race with few problems to be at the top.

 

[jaggedx]

Okay, So many of us have voiced their opinions and thoughts here but what now? How do we structure and implement the rules that we all want to see. I think that Cory needs to be brought into this disscusion. I beleive that at this point he is the one who will need to present any changes or clarifications to BITD. he could also be a help creating a presentation to SNORE ect.

 

[JoeyD23]

That was sort of my deal a few posts back is how do we take the info here and begin compiling it or allowing it to dictate a rules change? I did hear from an industry guy at the SSSS that it looks like Unlimited UTV would be allowing up to 1000cc factory motors?

As for Cory, he is aware of this thread but has chosen to not chime in for fear of a more heated debate? But he is more than welcome to jump in. He said he is keeping tabs on the posts and ideas expressed here.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

I did speak with Cory before I presented his rules to SNORE and he did tell me that he is interested in helping. I agree that he should be part of all of this. Perhaps a meeting is in order? Those that are truly interested in helping our sport progress would be there to sort this out.

 

[Bajaxp]

I will help anyway I can. Should we discuss at the Blue Water Desert Challenge coming up? A lot of us will be there.

 

[JoeyD23]

Great idea Matt. Maybe we could all get together Friday night somewhere in Parker and have a summit meeting of sorts?

 

[rockstarcustomz]

We will be there. Just let us know when and and where.