**ATTN: Racers/Teams** UTV Desert Rules Discussion

JoeyD23

#utvunderground
The SNORE thread has brought up some very healthy debate regarding the future rules and class options for UTV 1900 Desert Racing. I feel that if changes are going to be made to the rule books for class 1900 that today is the day that we as a UTV race community need to begin to decide on what is what in terms of 800cc + factory UTV's for the 2011 season.

The factory UTV is changing rapidly, we have seen the introduction of 2 different 1000cc factory UTV's over the past 2 years. I know some of you may give a chuckle but John Deere has introduced a 825Ci UTV into the mix and I know of atleast 1 person considering the JD Gator as a potential race vehicle. Who knows what may be next from Polaris and Kawasaki as I am sure they feel the pressure to keep up in the power chase?

The popular introduction this year was the new Can-Am Commander. Available in both 800cc and 1000cc the Commander has a vehicle that could fit in the Unlimited UTV 1900 class as it stands but reality is why would you buy an 800cc to race instead of the 1000cc? In the words of Ricky Bobby "I Wanna Go Fast...." . And of course we still have the Arctic Cat Prowler lineup which has both a 750cc and 1000cc motor packages.

My feeling is when the UTV desert rules were put together majority of the vehicles mentioned were not available.

As of last year adjustments were made to the rule book to accept the AC 1000, a weight penalty is assesed and the AC can run in the Unlimited Class. With that being said, I think its healthy to discuss the idea of introducing a weight rule to all vehicles pushing beyond 800cc across the board or maybe the solution is to change the Unlimited class to include these larger CC factory UTV's?

Anyway, I have already sad too much. You guys get the point. The idea is not to throw away all that has already been done for us in the UTV Rule Book, it is merely the idea of adapting and updating the rules to better accept the ever evolving UTV's hitting the market today and in the future. This discussion can help those looking to race UTV next year with making a better decision.

So get it going. Some good posts have been made in the SNORE thread, lets leave that thread to discuss the addition of class 1900 to SNORE and make this thread the spot to discuss rules and changes.
 
Great idea Joey. :D It is time to get some consistency in the different series and update them so new UTVs can be dropped in mid-year.

I think the Can-Am Commander 1000 and Arctic Cat Prowler 1000 should be in the same class. And anyone that wants to build a Kawasaki, Rhino or RZR that is above 800cc should be able to compete with the same rules that apply to new factory UTVs that are 800+cc's.

If another manufacturer comes out with a 1000, they should be able to compete in the pro class mid-year without special consideration unless something is out of norm for this new vehicle. So instead of dealing with each individual new UTV on a case by case basis (and only before the season starts) which is how Cory does it for BITD, you should have general rules that a new UTV can fall into and race within mid-year.
 
Having spent the past few years getting my ear chewed at tech over single vs twin vs big bore was unfair.....

Here is my input

Single 700 - all single cylinders under 700cc (Rhinos, Prowler 650)

Twin 760 - all single & twin cylinders under 760cc (Teryx, RZR, Prowler etc

BB Twin 850 - All Twin cylinders under 850cc (BBK Kawi's, Big bore RzR, Commander, JD, etc)

1K - all Multi cylinder under 1001 cc (Commander, Muzzy Kawi, turbo anything, any street bike motor, ???? and SR1 if needed)

SR1 - speaks for it self

The cc limit can be adjusted a bit, but you get the idea to keep it close.
Suspension on all current UTV's are all pretty equal with the LT kits

The addition of weight - major PITA IMHO. Adding weight only increases the wear / tear and brakage - not cost saving idea.
 
i think blue coyote has the right idea.if someone wants to run a little more power (cc) then there is a spot for class for them.
and let em weigh what they weigh.
 
I am not sure having 5 or more different classes is the answer. It gets too confusing and reduces car count and contingency.

SR1 should be left as is IMO, but I know a lot of other guys want to run 1000CC streetbike powered utv's so that is another discussion that needs to take place and decided upon. SHould those guys run sportsman or can we develop a specific 1000CC Street Bike Class?

Toss into the mix the whole Rotax thing as well? Sportsman for them too?
 
Having spent the past few years getting my ear chewed at tech over single vs twin vs big bore was unfair.....

Here is my input

Single 700 - all single cylinders under 700cc (Rhinos, Prowler 650)

Twin 760 - all single & twin cylinders under 760cc (Teryx, RZR, Prowler etc

BB Twin 850 - All Twin cylinders under 850cc (BBK Kawi's, Big bore RzR, Commander, JD, etc)

1K - all Multi cylinder under 1001 cc (Commander, Muzzy Kawi, turbo anything, any street bike motor, ???? and SR1 if needed)

SR1 - speaks for it self

The cc limit can be adjusted a bit, but you get the idea to keep it close.
Suspension on all current UTV's are all pretty equal with the LT kits

The addition of weight - major PITA IMHO. Adding weight only increases the wear / tear and brakage - not cost saving idea.

i think blue coyote has the right idea.if someone wants to run a little more power (cc) then there is a spot for class for them.
and let em weigh what they weigh.

I am not sure having 5 or more different classes is the answer. It gets too confusing and reduces car count and contingency.

SR1 should be left as is IMO, but I know a lot of other guys want to run 1000CC streetbike powered utv's so that is another discussion that needs to take place and decided upon. SHould those guys run sportsman or can we develop a specific 1000CC Street Bike Class?

Toss into the mix the whole Rotax thing as well? Sportsman for them too?


well the rules need to be clear thats for sure and excuse my refrence's to this deal

in 1600 cars they use a restrictor plate but that will not work you will have 15 or so different plates a big P.I.T.A we don't need that
if you look at road course racing like the touring cars and such a bigger engined car gets a weight penalty and they are given so much if they keep winning they get more added to make it better racing

i know the old rule 10lbs is 1hp but there needs to be something set up for this . so say the comander comes in and dominates for 2 or 3 races that utv is going to get a weight penalty and have it added to the chassis

this brings back when all the factory rides were coming out with all the truck classes like 7 open 7s 7 4x4 stock mini each truck had its own things that had to be looked at like the ford rangers had a lot more travel than say the chevy s-10 then chevy would lobby to have rules changed to make it better for them it was a complete nightmare the tech guys had to learn every truck and new trucks coming out it freaking sucked for them so the weight rule in my own opinion would be the only way to make it fair

and look at those classes now they are very small if next to nothing cause there were so many battles and pointing fingers it was a true mess

sorry for the long post just some things that have happened with other classes

and where are the factories now hmmmm so lets not let this happen again
 
I am not sure having 5 or more different classes is the answer. It gets too confusing and reduces car count and contingency.

SR1 should be left as is IMO, but I know a lot of other guys want to run 1000CC streetbike powered utv's so that is another discussion that needs to take place and decided upon. SHould those guys run sportsman or can we develop a specific 1000CC Street Bike Class?

Toss into the mix the whole Rotax thing as well? Sportsman for them too?

Joey - I AGREE with you 100% about diluting the class. But how do we resolve the single vs small twin vs big twin v MC issues so all involved feel the system is fair?

...
this brings back when all the factory rides were coming out with all the truck classes like 7 open 7s 7 4x4 stock mini each truck had its own things that had to be looked at like the ford rangers had a lot more travel than say the chevy s-10 then chevy would lobby to have rules changed to make it better for them it was a complete nightmare the tech guys had to learn every truck and new trucks coming out it freaking sucked for them so the weight rule in my own opinion would be the only way to make it fair

and look at those classes now they are very small if next to nothing cause there were so many battles and pointing fingers it was a true mess

sorry for the long post just some things that have happened with other classes

and where are the factories now hmmmm so lets not let this happen again

Having been a 7s racer I know all about this. And UTV's can very easily head down the same slippery slope with all the different manufactures and engine configurations. The one postive thing is that the current group of UTV's have simular suspension.

The Vdub based classes are easy to regulate - since 9, 11, 1600, 12 all run the same engine mfgr. As does class 3000 (ecotec). SR1 is closest to this concept.

Pounds per HP- maybe -but every racer down plays HP #'s (or exagerates them)
Pounds per CC may be the better method-but who wants to check cc's and weights - as an ex-tech dude I sure did not.

Maybe this
Small blocks
All engines under 845cc - with twins above 800cc adding weight (2# per cc over a base minimum weight) (this keeps it consistent with LOORRS)

Big Blocks
All engines between 846 and 1000cc. (Prowlers, Commanders, 916 Teryx, 850 rzr etc)

SR1 - Weller got it right

Outlaw - under 1300cc, MC engines, turbo anything, (or combine with BB and anything over 1001cc add lots of weight)

Weights should be w/o driver.

Not sure what the correct answer is - but keep in mind it must be fair, simple to understand, easy to verify and tech.
 
Thanks Joey for starting this thread.

Good debate and ideas everyone! In my opinion we need to look to the future and not dwell to heavily on the past. The second thing is that we are dealing with OEM vehicles and should gear the class(s) with them in mind...eg Outdoor motocross: 250's and 450's. I personally think it would be awesome if we had Cat, Polaris, BRP, Rhino, Terex, John Deere, Honda, etc all represented in the pro class. With this, the sport will grow and dealers will get involved...so far they haven't done so much.

So again in the spirit of simplicity and minimal classes, why not have a 800cc and below class, a 1000cc and below class and sportsman. All would be eligible for the 'overall' race win and championship. The motorcycle engined rigs would run sportsman. I have been around desert racing for a long time and the proliferation of classes has killed certain types of racing. I for one can not wait to race my 760cc engine Bobsled against an all singing and all dancing 1000cc Commander. As I said before hp is nice, but the thing we all should do (including me) is focus on durability and reliabiltiy which equates to finishes. We are still a class that if you have a clean run with zero repair down time you can podium. And it will likely be that way for a while. BTW I don't like the weight penalty thing because it rewards someone for building a 'boat anchor' and penalizes a guy who did a good job and built a fast, safe, reliable...light car.
 
Having spent the past few years getting my ear chewed at tech over single vs twin vs big bore was unfair.....

Here is my input

Single 700 - all single cylinders under 700cc (Rhinos, Prowler 650)

Twin 760 - all single & twin cylinders under 760cc (Teryx, RZR, Prowler etc

BB Twin 850 - All Twin cylinders under 850cc (BBK Kawi's, Big bore RzR, Commander, JD, etc)

1K - all Multi cylinder under 1001 cc (Commander, Muzzy Kawi, turbo anything, any street bike motor, ???? and SR1 if needed)

SR1 - speaks for it self

The cc limit can be adjusted a bit, but you get the idea to keep it close.
Suspension on all current UTV's are all pretty equal with the LT kits

The addition of weight - major PITA IMHO. Adding weight only increases the wear / tear and brakage - not cost saving idea.

Not a bad break down of classes if there are enough racers, but that just isn't happening so sar. Maybe squish them down a bit until there are more entries:

- less than 800 cc
- 801 cc - 1000 cc; this includes Prowler, Commander and any big block Teryx, RZR, etc.
- Sportsman - anything over 1001 cc, engine swaps and turbo

I think turbos should be put in Sportsman as well as any engine swap (streetbike motors including SR1 and Rhintax). The theory is to remain closer to factory and engine swaps change that quite a bit.
 
I like this discussion!

I see this from a different set of eyes then most of you because I look at this from both a manufacture and a racer /enthusiast point of view.

I will leave my opninions out of this for now but I will say this, multiple classes are not a problem for GP or smaller series races as it will only help entries for the guy that just wants to race what he has but it will never fly in some of the big series. They just don't want the headache of multiple classes of a vehicle that in principle is the same.
 
Not a bad break down of classes if there are enough racers, but that just isn't happening so sar. Maybe squish them down a bit until there are more entries:

- less than 800 cc
- 801 cc - 1000 cc; this includes Prowler, Commander and any big block Teryx, RZR, etc.
- Sportsman - anything over 1001 cc, engine swaps and turbo

I think turbos should be put in Sportsman as well as any engine swap (streetbike motors including SR1 and Rhintax). The theory is to remain closer to factory and engine swaps change that quite a bit.


I like Jon's breakdown of classes more. That would put the RZR and Teryx in stock form in the under 800 class, the 800 to 1000 would put built up Teryx's and built RZR's in the class with Prowler XTZs and Commanders,which would be pretty even. So I think Jon has the right breakdown there.
You might want to have amatuer or sportsman and pro class breakdowns in each, so that you don't get guys like Jon racing against wet behind the ear newbies...
 
Not a bad break down of classes if there are enough racers, but that just isn't happening so sar. Maybe squish them down a bit until there are more entries:

- less than 800 cc
- 801 cc - 1000 cc; this includes Prowler, Commander and any big block Teryx, RZR, etc.
- Sportsman - anything over 1001 cc, engine swaps and turbo

I think turbos should be put in Sportsman as well as any engine swap (streetbike motors including SR1 and Rhintax). The theory is to remain closer to factory and engine swaps change that quite a bit.

I agree, simple also. I would also through into this that a single cylinder rhino race car, should set the minimum weight for the class (without driver)

does induction play into the rules normally? in many series, forced induction is only allowed in Sportsman 1450 trucks.
 
I think leave the forced induction stuff out of these discussions.

Every single one of these engines have their limits on making safe reliable power, the split of 800 and below and 800-1000 is a good split. I don’t think RZRs can make it much past 850 and be reliable and the same with Kawasaki, the new kawi 919 kits are about as far as I would every want to push one for reliability….maybe. Right now I don’t think we want to add a whole pile of classes, adding just one makes sense. Up to 800cc Pro, 801-1000 Pro, and everything else goes into sportsman.

Lets not get diluted to start, add the one and wait a year or 2 and see what happens. By all the comments it’s the best place to start.
 
I think we should combine the under 800cc and over 800cc classes and have a minimum weight for the over 800cc class. Weight should be without driver and co driver. There is not enough cars to dilute the classes. The open or(sportsman) could be for SR1's and turbo cars.
 
Not a bad break down of classes if there are enough racers, but that just isn't happening so sar. Maybe squish them down a bit until there are more entries:

- less than 800 cc
- 801 cc - 1000 cc; this includes Prowler, Commander and any big block Teryx, RZR, etc.
- Sportsman - anything over 1001 cc, engine swaps and turbo

I think turbos should be put in Sportsman as well as any engine swap (streetbike motors including SR1 and Rhintax). The theory is to remain closer to factory and engine swaps change that quite a bit.

I think leave the forced induction stuff out of these discussions.

Every single one of these engines have their limits on making safe reliable power, the split of 800 and below and 800-1000 is a good split. I don’t think RZRs can make it much past 850 and be reliable and the same with Kawasaki, the new kawi 919 kits are about as far as I would every want to push one for reliability….maybe. Right now I don’t think we want to add a whole pile of classes, adding just one makes sense. Up to 800cc Pro, 801-1000 Pro, and everything else goes into sportsman.

Lets not get diluted to start, add the one and wait a year or 2 and see what happens. By all the comments it’s the best place to start.

I agree, normally aspirated should be what's considered here. Leave the turbos and superchargers for down the road.
 
I like the idea of Up To 800cc Pro Class, 800-1000CC Pro Class, and Sprotsman for all others including SR1, Motor swaps, Turbos, etc etc etc.

At the end of the day I would rather see Pro Unlimited up to 1000CC and then a Super Stock class of some sort. I think everyone needs to keep in mind the idea of winning over the Factories to get them to want to get more highly involved with UTV desert racing.



So OK moving forward how do we come to a conclusion here? I think what would help us all is for all of you to send this link to everyone you know involved in UTV desert racing and get them to come here and toss in their 2 cents. From there we can post a poll and see what wins out? The important thing here is for everyone to feel good about the future of UTV off road racing as a whole.
 
I like the idea of Up To 800cc Pro Class, 800-1000CC Pro Class, and Sprotsman for all others including SR1, Motor swaps, Turbos, etc etc etc.

At the end of the day I would rather see Pro Unlimited up to 1000CC and then a Super Stock class of some sort. I think everyone needs to keep in mind the idea of winning over the Factories to get them to want to get more highly involved with UTV desert racing.



So OK moving forward how do we come to a conclusion here? I think what would help us all is for all of you to send this link to everyone you know involved in UTV desert racing and get them to come here and toss in their 2 cents. From there we can post a poll and see what wins out? The important thing here is for everyone to feel good about the future of UTV off road racing as a whole.

I agree that up to 800cc and up to 1000cc pro classes would be the best way to separate the classes but would that make the car count for both classes too low?
 
I don't think we should come to conclusions so soon, give people some time to formulate their opinions and ideas and post them here. Once we have given it some time then we can take it to the UTVRA, BITD, SNORE, ETC for their buy in. Remember at the end of the day it is the race promoters decision and all we can do is help influence it.

I know I have quite a few ideas on what should be done, heck I was one of the guys that put the original rules together with Cory. I just don't have time right now to get my ideas down on paper.

The way I see it there are only a few cars that compete in desert races on a semi regular basis. Dividing the cars up is going to give us a very small classes.

The other question that should be asked if we are going to rewrite the rules is should a RZR 4 be in the same class as a Teryx, Rhino, or RZR because of the difference in the wheel base?

I've started to put together a list of current racers. Feel free to ad to it. I'm curious to see how many cars are truly out there and how often they race and what type of car they have.

Pro UTV
Jason Murray Rhino
Brandon Schueler RZR
Sean Lindberg Rhino
Jerome Vinagro RZR
Yancey Reynolds
Brian Thomas
Cory Sappington Rhino
Mike Cook RZR 4
Ricky Leard
Jeff Furnell RZR
Ronny Awtry
Lacrecia Beurrier Rhino
Austin Anderson
Michael Lasher Teryx
Pierre Perret RZR
Matt Parks RZR 4

SR1
Joseph Leeper
Bobby Melkesian
 
I shoul dhave been clear....I dont think we should make a decision today or even this week. But looking forward how do we settle on something that everyone or most agree upon. But I think you answered that question.....Thanks for the input Mike!
 
Lets not turn this into a cluster f..k! I think having more then 3 or 4 classes is going to take the fun out of it. The races that I have been in that have had 12-18 entrys have been the most fun!!! Having too many classes with 3-5 entrys is going to suck!! I love the fact that when Im in a race that I have just as much of a chance to win a race as the next guy. I dont take into consideration what size motor they have. If I can get my rzr to the finish line with no issues then I have a great shot at a win. When I raced the Bluewater GP I was chasing the 1950 who claims he has a stock rhino motor and I could not catch him. I broke an axle over driving my rzr trying to catch him. Either way it was a lot of fun. I race to be competitive and have fun doing it. I know I have a disadvantage to factory teams and guys that have professionaly built cars but I dont care. Either way it is a kick in the ass and I have met some gerat people competing in the sport that I have loved since the 80s. The bottom line in my oppinion is detailed prep and awsome suspension can win a race over HP.
 

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