Is there such a thing as excessive nerfing?

[COGNITO]

That being said it would be a good idea to have the top 10 in points start in front (and I have no dog in this fight.)

I agree, separate draw for top ten

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[tatum]

Without reading this whole thread did George post the rule where it says nerfing is illegal? I thought it was only illegal for big vehicles to nerf blue light vehicles. Desert racing isn't for everybody.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

"..did George post the rule where it says nerfing is illegal? I thought it was only illegal for big vehicles to nerf blue light vehicles.."

Since nobody in the top 10 currently wants nerfing restrictions...and (of course) is 'now' demanding that they (always) start ahead of everybody else for obvious reasons (go figure)...why not assess passing penalties based solely on any one team's willingness and ability to record any questionable incident properly...and the 'nerfing' team's ability to produce (well shielded/clear) footage as well? This retains the concept for those who believe that nerfing will (most) always be inevitable in desert racing (or more accurately a non-enforced\regulated effective strategy as evidently practiced today) and switches the burden of proof to the passer for producing the best possible viewpoint ONLY if another racer complains.

If your front view/in cab camera isn't (cough) 'working'?...then simply nerfing the car in front of you for even legitimate purposes better be a 'clean' move as there will be but one vantage point reviewed (the other car's). On the flip side, if another racer complains (that party MUST have footage) and loses...then penalties are assessed to that team and entered in to their final time instead.

Either way, if this extremely effective tactic (who can't catch somebody in a slow part of the course and simply plow into them with their siren wailing at the very first opportunity) isn't reigned under control soon ...somebody's going to get hurt or killed in these lightly built cars and nobody will be able to blame 'that's just racing' having not addressed it (like adults) beforehand with simple 21st century technology.

With no expectation of the risks involved as related to the rules or even the best that the rules can possibly be without ruining the sport?...nobody is being given a fair chance to compete or simply arrive back home safely.

 

[staggs]

Since nobody in the top 10 currently wants nerfing restrictions...and (of course) is 'now' demanding that they (always) start ahead of everybody else for obvious reasons (go figure)...why not assess passing penalties based solely on any one team's willingness and ability to record any questionable incident properly...and the 'nerfing' team's ability to produce (well shielded/clear) footage as well? This retains the concept for those who believe that nerfing will (most) always be inevitable in desert racing (or more accurately a non-enforced\regulated effective strategy as evidently practiced today) and switches the burden of proof to the passer for producing the best possible viewpoint ONLY if another racer complains.

If your front view/in cab camera isn't (cough) 'working'?...then simply nerfing the car in front of you for even legitimate purposes better be a 'clean' move as there will be but one vantage point reviewed (the other car's). On the flip side, if another racer complains (that party MUST have footage) and loses...then penalties are assessed to that team and entered in to their final time instead.

Either way, if this extremely effective tactic (who can't catch somebody in a slow part of the course and simply plow into them with their siren wailing at the very first opportunity) isn't reigned under control soon ...somebody's going to get hurt or killed in these lightly built cars and nobody will be able to blame 'that's just racing' having not addressed it (like adults) beforehand with simple 21st century technology.

With no expectation of the risks involved as related to the rules or even the best that the rules can possibly be without ruining the sport?...nobody is being given a fair chance to compete or simply arrive back home safely.

Or they can just watch there mirrors and move or get nerfed like the rest of the racing community and stop crying !

 

[george.felix]

Without reading this whole thread did George post the rule where it says nerfing is illegal? I thought it was only illegal for big vehicles to nerf blue light vehicles. Desert racing isn't for everybody.

I did but here it is again page 13 under Infractions and Penaties.
F. Minor nerfing: One position.
G. Major nerfing: Disqualification

Don't shoot the messenger I didn't write the rule. I wouldn't be opposed to changing it to something more appropriate if that's what the class agreed on. Or get rid of it altogether and make it legal.

For all those that imply I'm not tough enough for a golf cart with a complete cage etc. Thats hysterical! I never said I was really good but I've rolled the car at 70 mph my first race and twice more the same race only slightly slower. I flipped the car back over two of those times w just my skinny ass 140 lb co driver and finished V2R last yr. Then flipped again at Parker really hard again about 65 mph then again at Baja 500 at 60 mph then rammed by a car at 70 mph and came back to race V2R. Prior to that I raced bikes for 25 years and not many bones I haven't broken. The toughest sport I've ever done is race Mtn bikes which I started after I turned 52....anyone else my age doing this? I broke 5 ribs and a punctured lung so I decided to try UTV's.

I promise you nothing about utvs scares me......that doesn't mean I don't see the potential for someone getting hurt. Yeah it could be me I guess. I was out of it for 40 min at Baja could have permanent brain injury which explains a lot right. Lol. Look someone has to point out the white elephant in the room and if u didn't respond it would get very boring on UTVUG. If you don't think I'm tough enough you haven't seen my car.

Which brings me to my next thread.....the courses aren't tough enough. Don't you wish they were just a little more technical?

 

[staggs]

I did but here it is again page 13 under Infractions and Penaties.
F. Minor nerfing: One position.
G. Major nerfing: Disqualification

Don't shoot the messenger I didn't write the rule. I wouldn't be opposed to changing it to something more appropriate if that's what the class agreed on. Or get rid of it altogether and make it legal.

For all those that imply I'm not tough enough for a golf cart with a complete cage etc. Thats hysterical! I never said I was really good but I've rolled the car at 70 mph my first race and twice more the same race only slightly slower. I flipped the car back over two of those times w just my skinny ass 140 lb co driver and finished V2R last yr. Then flipped again at Parker really hard again about 65 mph then again at Baja 500 at 60 mph then rammed by a car at 70 mph and came back to race V2R. Prior to that I raced bikes for 25 years and not many bones I haven't broken. The toughest sport I've ever done is race Mtn bikes which I started after I turned 52....anyone else my age doing this? I broke 5 ribs and a punctured lung so I decided to try UTV's.

I promise you nothing about utvs scares me......that doesn't mean I don't see the potential for someone getting hurt. Yeah it could be me I guess. I was out of it for 40 min at Baja could have permanent brain injury which explains a lot right. Lol. Look someone has to point out the white elephant in the room and if u didn't respond it would get very boring on UTVUG. If you don't think I'm tough enough you haven't seen my car.

Which brings me to my next thread.....the courses aren't tough enough. Don't you wish they were just a little more technical?

Sappington nerfed me 5 times in a row at the mint on the power line road with 2ft rock berms , dented up the back of my new car, I had 5 cars in front of me bumper to bumper it was a dick move but I didn't cry on here about it cause even though it was bs giving the situation it is still racing

 

[staggs]

Another thing you need to consider is the guy nerfing has no idea what your going to do so as he comes in for the nerd if you check up or slow down well it's going to make it harder but wasn't his intention

 

[george.felix]

Staggs this has turned into a discussion just saying. It will be over when we all stop talking about it. Lol
So course cutting is part of every kind of racing I've done but the rules say it's illegal so kinda makes it the dark shady side of racing....what Conrad Dobler was to football. I mean other players hit hard but just not in the same way. Who's the Raider safety jack Tatum that had the same rep who paralyzed Stingley. I think it was. All part of the game but I bet JJ Watt never paralyzed anyone in his career. See the contrast? You can be good and competitive without creating undo risk to others especially so if your good. Case in point I nerfed Lopez at Baja 500 not so skillfully and he was pretty pissed. The only good thing was I jacked my own front end up worse than his. 1916 car same thing botched nerf.

I see what your saying and understand it has it's place but maybe just not be so quick to resort to that. 10 sec isn't much time. I followed Lopez a lot longer than that......mins. Maybe there's a middle ground. In a nutshell i don't think anyone cares about being nerfed......they do care about being damaged that end the race.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Sappington nerfed me 5 times in a row..(with) 5 cars in front of me bumper to bumper it was a dick move but I didn't cry on here about it cause even though it was bs giving the situation it is still racing

Or they can just watch there mirrors and move or get nerfed like the rest of the racing community and stop crying !

I did but here it is again page 13 under Infractions and Penaties.
F. Minor nerfing: One position.
G. Major nerfing: Disqualification

Either "the racing community" truly believes that winning these races by the rules actually means something to every single racer out there or their victories (damn the rules) don't.

It is utterly amazing to me that a fellow racer has to point out (in black and white) twice probably the single most important agreed upon battlefield etiquette concept designed solely to prevent total mayhem out on the course. You guys could care less about defining even 'minor' nerfing over all this time..yet you respect the rules..even it means a position lost in the end? What member of the next racing generation observing any of this conversation unfold believes the latter ridiculous b.s. statement...when anybody so much as even mentioning 'the rules' is jumped all over and told to stop crying?

Whether anybody 'agrees' with nerfing or not is no different than all of your 'turbo' arguments of late in that these are the rules that a racer 'supposedly' lives by so that victories/championships actually mean something in a sport with little or no oversight on race day.

That's a "racing community"...or a whole bunch of guys who meet years later with their grandchildren in tow knowing full well that they either played by those rules or acted enough like a "community" at the time to actually change them for their sake.

 

[george.felix]

Either "the racing community" truly believes that winning these races by the rules actually means something to every single racer out there or their victories (damn the rules) don't.

It is utterly amazing to me that a fellow racer has to point out (in black and white) twice probably the single most important agreed upon battlefield etiquette concept designed solely to prevent total mayhem out on the course. You guys could care less about defining even 'minor' nerfing over all this time..yet you respect the rules..even it means a position lost in the end? What member of the next generation watching any of this conversation unfold believes that ridiculous b.s. statement when anybody so much as even 'mentioning' the rules is jumped all over and told to stop crying?

Whether anybody 'agrees' with nerfing or not is no different than all of your 'turbo' arguments of late in that these are the rules that a racer 'supposedly' lives by so that victories/championships actually mean something in a sport with little or no oversight on race day.

That's a "racing community"...or a whole bunch of guys who meet years later with their grandchildren in tow knowing full well that they either played by those rules or acted enough like a community at the time to actually change them for their sake.

Holy shit! Didn't see that coming...... Here's your new guy to tar and feather. Good Luck Bud..... Lol

 

[staggs]

Either "the racing community" truly believes that winning these races by the rules actually means something to every single racer out there or their victories (damn the rules) don't.

It is utterly amazing to me that a fellow racer has to point out (in black and white) twice probably the single most important agreed upon battlefield etiquette concept designed solely to prevent total mayhem out on the course. You guys could care less about defining even 'minor' nerfing over all this time..yet you respect the rules..even it means a position lost in the end? What member of the next racing generation observing any of this conversation unfold believes the latter ridiculous b.s. statement...when anybody so much as even mentioning 'the rules' is jumped all over and told to stop crying?

Whether anybody 'agrees' with nerfing or not is no different than all of your 'turbo' arguments of late in that these are the rules that a racer 'supposedly' lives by so that victories/championships actually mean something in a sport with little or no oversight on race day.

That's a "racing community"...or a whole bunch of guys who meet years later with their grandchildren in tow knowing full well that they either played by those rules or acted enough like a "community" at the time to actually change them for their sake.

Well put I will say but nerfing is part of the sport if you don't move out of a faster racers way, obviously you either aren't moving or don't know he's there so that is the way to let him know your back there. I like to think all play by the rules as well as you can't prevent situations as stated above. The gripe about the turbos is to see if more agree and if so make a attempt to change it, how ever if the rules don't change then that is the rules. The biggest issue at hand with the turbos is it's turning the ones who make the class what it is today away to other classes or race venues. The issue with this nerfing thread is that George has made a big deal out of it in the past. Nerfing isn't going any where and it's the racer and his codrivers job to be aware of what's going on behind them and get out of the way of a faster racer.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Every racer out there knows the difference between races/championships won playing by the same rules that everybody else is expected to play by and American racing history is full of those stories good and bad. Desert racing is even more tied to those legacies as it is one of the few sports where participants are expected to police their own (using the rules) to make a dangerous sport even safer. Technology (satelite phones/cameras) has just about made any previous 'honor' portion of the sport a 'no-brainer'... yet there are obviously those out there (still) hoping that nobody will ever (or should ever) be right there in the car with them for just as long as they possibly can.

 

[staggs]

Staggs this has turned into a discussion just saying. It will be over when we all stop talking about it. Lol
So course cutting is part of every kind of racing I've done but the rules say it's illegal so kinda makes it the dark shady side of racing....what Conrad Dobler was to football. I mean other players hit hard but just not in the same way. Who's the Raider safety jack Tatum that had the same rep who paralyzed Stingley. I think it was. All part of the game but I bet JJ Watt never paralyzed anyone in his career. See the contrast? You can be good and competitive without creating undo risk to others especially so if your good. Case in point I nerfed Lopez at Baja 500 not so skillfully and he was pretty pissed. The only good thing was I jacked my own front end up worse than his. 1916 car same thing botched nerf.

I see what your saying and understand it has it's place but maybe just not be so quick to resort to that. 10 sec isn't much time. I followed Lopez a lot longer than that......mins. Maybe there's a middle ground. In a nutshell i don't think anyone cares about being nerfed......they do care about being damaged that end the race.

10 sec is not I agree how ever you had to see him coming and been able to look ahead to get over. The deal when your transmission got broken I agree with your frustration but you don't know the situation as in you may have checked up etc. and he didn't have time to react. I agree I don't nerf until I have given some one enough time in my mind to move. In the end I don't think there is any racer out there that wants to damage another racers car or worse.

 

[george.felix]

Well put I will say but needing is part of the sport if you don't move out of a faster racers way, obviously you either aren't moving or don't know he's there so that is the way to let him know your back there. I like to think all play by the rules as well as you can't prevent situations as stated above. The gripe about the turbos is to see if more agree and if so make a attempt to change it, how ever if the rules don't change then that is the rules. The biggest issue at hand with the turbos is it's turning the ones who make the class what it is today away to other classes or race venues. The issue with this nerfing thread is George has made a big deal out of it over the past. Nerfing isn't going any where and it's the racer and his codrivers job to be aware of what's going on behind them and get out of the way of a faster racer.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on you can't get around them crap. It really depends on how u want to race and as mentions etiquette determined. Like every other like sport they sometimes have tuck in behind and wait till they can break away or get around. Like I said Staggs you never raced in the woods or mixed open/technical courses because your much tighter than these BITD courses their like freeways with a frontage road. Passing is always risky....have you ever hit a tree? It's not like a 12" potted plant we have in Desert racing and these guys aren't wadding each other up. It's not always easy but the good races figure out how and doesn't take that long as u might think.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Well put I will say but nerfing is part of the sport if you don't move out of a faster racers way, obviously you either aren't moving or don't know he's there so that is the way to let him know your back there. I like to think all play by the rules as well as you can't prevent situations as stated above. The gripe about the turbos is to see if more agree and if so make a attempt to change it, how ever if the rules don't change then that is the rules. The biggest issue at hand with the turbos is it's turning the ones who make the class what it is today away to other classes or race venues. The issue with this nerfing thread is that George has made a big deal out of it in the past. Nerfing isn't going any where and it's the racer and his codrivers job to be aware of what's going on behind them and get out of the way of a faster racer.

I would never pretend (even though I might offer an armchair suggestion or two) to believe that anybody should be changing anything if not for the racer's input. What's at risk, it seems, is the racers themselves not taking enough interest in clearing up even the most basic/dangerous aspects of how the race is (realistically) run and regretting it later in terms of realities much more important than how everybody ran or won the race itself (a glaring tragic oversight/incident that they refused to fix 'regardless'; not giving a rip who runs the race or who would just as soon ignore the rules/live in the past).

I wouldn't want that ruining what you guys have built yet I can guarantee that for a lot of guys, it would.

 

[george.felix]

10 sec is not I agree how ever you had to see him coming and been able to look ahead to get over. The deal when your transmission got broken I agree with your frustration but you don't know the situation as in you may have checked up etc. and he didn't have time to react. I agree I don't nerf until I have given some one enough time in my mind to move. In the end I don't think there is any racer out there that wants to damage another racers car or worse.

Now I agree with that so we should stop now. Lol Used sparingly as a last resort. Then using responsible judgement. Why I think if u jack up someone's car there should be consequences. To me it's safe to assume reckless even if they hit their brakes just like in the real world. Rear end is always your fault.

 

[staggs]

I'm going to have to call bullshit on you can't get around them crap. Like every other like sport they sometimes have tuck in behind and wait till they can break away or get around. Like I said Staggs you never raced in the woods or mixed open/technical courses because your much tighter than these BITD courses their like freeways with a frontage road. Passing is always risky....have you ever hit a tree? It's not like a 12" potted plant we have in Desert racing and these guys aren't wadding each other up.

I find it funny you are quick to jump and tell me where I have and haven't raced. Here is a quick back round for you I grew up in Colorado, started racing many types of motorsports at age 5. I guess there isn't any races there in the woods or trees, Thanks though for lining out my race life LOL. You raced the mint right? and so your going to tell me there are no sections in that course where you cant pass? if your calling bullshit on you can't get around them then why did you nerf lopez? in the Baja 500. No matter how you want to paint the picture nerfing isn't going to go any where, make sure you build the back of your car to take a nerf, have your bumper stick out far enough to limit tires touching etc. The co-driver has a big role in this and before you tell me how would I know, I have some experience being passenger lol. See you at the races George

 

[tatum]

Now I agree with that so we should stop now. Lol Used sparingly as a last resort. Then using responsible judgement. Why I think if u jack up someone's car there should be consequences. To me it's safe to assume reckless even if they hit their brakes just like in the real world. Rear end is always your fault.

Desert racing isn't the interstate with a passing lane. It also isn't woods racing or mountain bike racing. Like it or not nerfing is part of this sport.

 

[ironworks]

I'm going to have to call bullshit on you can't get around them crap. It really depends on how u want to race and as mentions etiquette determined. Like every other like sport they sometimes have tuck in behind and wait till they can break away or get around. Like I said Staggs you never raced in the woods or mixed open/technical courses because your much tighter than these BITD courses their like freeways with a frontage road. Passing is always risky....have you ever hit a tree? It's not like a 12" potted plant we have in Desert racing and these guys aren't wadding each other up. It's not always easy but the good races figure out how and doesn't take that long as u might think.

First off your tune changes with the wind. How is a guy supposed to tuck up behind some one in the dust for a long period? What if you check up hard after they have tucked in behind you? How is the guy supposed to see around you you to safely pass? Sure if it's wide open but on a bermed and graded road it's safer for you to just pull over. That's a pile up waiting to happen. You co driver needs to pull his head out of his ass and do his job. If your not gonna use the mirror take them off for the weight savings and you won't have to replace then when you roll your car at every race. And towing your car across the line at v2r is not finishing the race.

You need to go to the race desert site and see how big a puss your made out to be from you nerf complaint.

 

[BiggJim]

here is the video of the 3 passes earlier in the race and the last one is yours George. Is this excessive?

Well I didn't tell Casey I was taken out of the race nor did I say it was excessive. What I told him was some cars were hit hard and taken out....two to be exact. That's what we talked about mostly. He said he was going to talk to Justin and I said that's not my point Casey.

He asked me what I thought he should do and I said say something at the next drivers meeting that if you damage another car hitting them from behind it's your fault and pay the damage and whatever penalty the rules allow.

"Our 1958 car got hit hard by 1918 coming out of the pits at #3 denting our chromoly bumper." That's what I said and I thought your car had come right up on us and didn't realize we had 10 seconds. But most of the conversation w Casey was about cars hit and damaged not about our minor dents......was about the bigger picture as far as I was concerned. Tap tap is one thing slammed almost rolled shattered my transmission is another. That's what we talked about.

I'll call him again after seeing the video and set it straight as far as our car. I can't speak for the others.

here is the video of the 3 passes earlier in the race and the last one is yours George. Is this excessive?

I made the intellectual comment because it seemed that everyone keeps missing my point and replying how they nerfed correctly etc. when the point is what the rules say. Get it now? I don't believe it was a personal attack either not directed at anyone.

I think they were singled out because they promoted the war hammer as a weapon to be used to nerf. Also cuz they've been involved in multiple nerfings probably way more than anyone else. Between love taps and Ass Slams. Believe it or not there are quite a few cars that are against it and never do it or seldom do it. You know who they are and many of them are top running cars.

There is no rule saying you cannot nerf. Where are you reading this?