Are UTV Racers Cheating at BITD??

[///Airdam Clutches]

2015 RZR 1000 typically does 74-76 stock

remove the two limiting spacer shims in the top of the primary clutch and every single RZR 1000 on the market will hit and hold the 80mph speed limiter. no ECU tricks needed.

once you add 400-500lbs of weight onto the machine over the factory weight, the engine just doesnt have enough power to get you to 80 anymore. at best 70mph is all you can expect out of a stock engine. with a bone stock RZR 1000 xp4 at 1950lbs, even with the clutching dialed in perfectly, 66-68mph is all it will do, the engine just doesnt have enough power to pull it any further.

when watching some of the top teams on the tracker, you can see their sustained speeds at and above 75-78mph. there is only one way to get that fast and it takes power. lots of power. and with high power comes belt problems.

 

[the stripping shop]

reading this 11 page cheater section that joey started is pretty funny. there is no answer to the cheater/tech/bitd problem. What is the answer start a driver association for BITD. Put 5 guys to rep drivers ex bill schueller, murray, joey d, justin cognito, adam from air dam. You get 5 different type of guys but you get one answer from them that rep the utv driver. Come together as a group with good ideas to grow and level the playing field hell it would lighten the load off of cory utvra. Don't do the isa thing and change everything/rules and make it work in every type of utv racing, just do it for BITD. Joey d should have every e-mail from every driver on rec for mint400 and championship. Come together as a group and the bring it to attention to BITD/UTVRA then you get respect from them. Cheating is not the next problem the next problem is passing and bigger cars racing all together on one track V2R/Silver state. Ex no passing alert/sirens you can't hear/hell no one knows when to pull over/hitting each other to heard trying to pass. You need to address these issues first before you deal with cheaters, because there are allot of 1st year driver coming into the sport.

 

[the stripping shop]

2015 RZR 1000 typically does 74-76 stock

remove the two limiting spacer shims in the top of the primary clutch and every single RZR 1000 on the market will hit and hold the 80mph speed limiter. no ECU tricks needed.

once you add 400-500lbs of weight onto the machine over the factory weight, the engine just doesnt have enough power to get you to 80 anymore. at best 70mph is all you can expect out of a stock engine. with a bone stock RZR 1000 xp4 at 1950lbs, even with the clutching dialed in perfectly, 66-68mph is all it will do, the engine just doesnt have enough power to pull it any further.

when watching some of the top teams on the tracker, you can see their sustained speeds at and above 75-78mph. there is only one way to get that fast and it takes power. lots of power. and with high power comes belt problems.

Your stock RZR 1000 has a speed limiter that activates at about 77mph. When you get close to 77mph Your RZR will start to close the throttle to limit your mph without you even noticing (sneaky). We fix this with this re-flash. We raise the limiter to 90mph which means your throttle will stay wide open if you want it to. To help you achieve a higher mph we raise your rev limiter to 9200rpm.
ECU core options:
Option 1: Pay no core charge. Send us your ECU. We will re-flash it and send it back to you within 1 week.
Option 2: Purchase Outright - No core is required to be sent in - Raises kit price by $450
Option 3: We send you a programmed ecu and you pay core charge of $450. You send us your ECU as a core within 2 weeks and we refund your $450 core charge.
So your saying no Polaris team does this or this is a waste of money, or you can only do 80 with high compression motor, or with all the above you can achieve this. what is stock rev limiter on rzr

 

[///Airdam Clutches]

i cant quite make out all of that, i read it a few times and still dont understand if that above is a statement or a question. but...

every polaris RZR 1000 comes with a clutch throw limiter. there are white or blue shims in the primary under the cover where the spring goes. the clutch bottoms out on these shims and limits how far the clutch will close. this limits the throw ratio of the clutch. WITH the shims installed, your throw ratio allows the belt to reach a certain height in the primary, once the belt reaches that throw limit, then you begin to increase engine RPM. you will quickly run into the ECU rev limiter which is 8650-8750. (hard to tell cause it bounces back and forth) when you get close to the rev limit yes the throttlbodies will close so you arent hitting the rev limiter hard. but you will be still sitting at the rev limiter and the throttlebodies slightly closed

when you remove these throw limiters, you can allow the belt to push higher in the primary and lower in the secondary giving you a taller gear ratio thru the clutch. with a 100% stock polaris RZR, and the throw limiters removed, you can hit the 80mph speed limiter, and still be running 8350RPM. as soon as you hit the 80mph speed limiter you can clearly feel the throttlebodies closing on you and limiting your power so that you will maintain, but not exceed 80mph.

every polaris RZR 1000 has these throw limiters in the primary
these throw limiters reduce the overall gearing in the clutch so that you hit the rev limiter at 74-76mph
when you remove these throw limiters you can get the taller gear ratio in the clutch and easily see the 80mph speed limiter.
when you add 400-500lbs of weight to the stock vehicle, you can no longer see these speeds, your stock engine does not have enough power to reach much more than 68mph. power to weight ratio kills you.
when you add more power, you can then get back your lost speed.
yes i have worked with every engine build possible, and tested with probably every ECU flash available. i have had RZR 1000 with mods at 92-93mph. it wasnt a 2000lb desert car, it was a light short course car. power to weight ratio allows you to do things, go fast, and accelerate fast. when you have a heavy desert car, and a stock engine, you can expect a heavy slow pig. when you put tons of power down the line you can make that heavy pig faster.

 

[the stripping shop]

Your stock RZR 1000 has a speed limiter that activates at about 77mph. When you get close to 77mph Your RZR will start to close the throttle to limit your mph without you even noticing (sneaky). We fix this with this re-flash. We raise the limiter to 90mph which means your throttle will stay wide open if you want it to. To help you achieve a higher mph we raise your rev limiter to 9200rpm.

right from alba racing.

UTV-15 ENGINE LOCATION AND DISPLACEMENT:
All UTV classes Maximum engine displacement is 1000cc. UTV Pro Production
vehicles must use stock engine cases and cylinder head. Engine displacement and
location may be checked by UTV Racing Association at any time. The UTV
Racing Association reserves the right to mark or seal engine blocks prior to an
event and confiscate engines after the race. Confiscated engines may not be
returned.
Pro Production UTV class vehicles with factory turbocharged engines must remain
stock as delivered from the factory. No changes or modifications are allowed, with
the exception of the air cleaner, header pipe, exhaust pipe, muffler and clutch. All
engine parts must remain stock. No aftermarket ECU’s. No aftermarket fuel
controllers. All electronic engine management parts must remain stock as delivered
from the factory. Turbocharged engines must be inspected and sealed prior to
racing. Do not wait till tech for this inspection. Contact Cory 602-769-6164

the ECU rule is what I am talking about its placed under the utv15 rule it applies to all models so alba/queen/benchmark/evolution/muzzy anybody offering re flash is technically illegal to BITD then. power commanders stand alone ecu all the above are illegal then. It's the way its worded and placed into the rules. If you had a panel some kind of driver association could and should be handled before this mess happened with bitd and utvra.

Adam I under stand what you are saying with clutch but your saying queen didn't reflash badass rzr/ or utv inc car then Polaris didn't touch jaggy. all the above used factory ecu but were re flashed.

 

[Ignore Amos]

I have a couple of observations and a question or two.. first, this thread was brought over from a FB post and it was Joey that named it "Are UTV racers cheating at BITD?" not the engine builder who posted this in FB. That said builder initially was questioning the legality of the S3 car and I believe he as retracted any allegations made based on S3's upfront answers...I'm thinking he didn't mean to call anyone out specifically but I think the greater question that the builder was trying to raise was the process for regulating of the rules and how the tech inspection process is handled today.

I believe that every racer I have known over the last 5 years of racing BITD has had some kind of issue with one or both of these areas... it definitely has to be improved as the sport has blown up over the last couple of years and the money, size of the class and liability has changed immensely. I am one of many who believe we need to make changes in how the class needs to grow and take responsibility for it's own growth and in a role that that it will make it better for everyone evolved, whether it be a racer, sponsor or fan. I would love to see the leaders in our sport step up and work with Cory to help continue for this sport to evolve safely and fairly for all involved. I truly believe its time for a committee to be developed that would have the best interest of the sport for all. I would think Cory would be excited to lift the burden of all the rule making and teching responsibility off of his back. Cory has been instrumental for the success and growth of this sport and enough cant be said to how much the sport owes its success to him...but like all successful ventures, there is a time when the venture outgrows the founders ability to manage it.. its seen as a good not bad thing and an ode to that founders hard work and dedication...In real life Im a business owner and I cant wait for the day when my business outgrows me. I hope this discussion lead to action in some form.

Onto my question..
Johnny is stupid fast (faster because he stupid?... I dont know)..but balls of granite in my book for sure. My question is this, I know his car is 100% legal...but based on previous statements here, how can his car do over 90 mph (unless hes detuned it which might be the case) if his car is 100% stock as he says (and I believe.. dont flame me JA... I love ya schooling the status quo) just a question...I wish I could get my Turbo Mav to do more than 83 and thats with a tailwind (and I get Airdam explanation of Polaris clutch's vs BRP) Thanks!!! love UTV racing!!!

 

[george.felix]

reading this 11 page cheater section that joey started is pretty funny. there is no answer to the cheater/tech/bitd problem. What is the answer start a driver association for BITD. Put 5 guys to rep drivers ex bill schueller, murray, joey d, justin cognito, adam from air dam. You get 5 different type of guys but you get one answer from them that rep the utv driver. Come together as a group with good ideas to grow and level the playing field hell it would lighten the load off of cory utvra. Don't do the isa thing and change everything/rules and make it work in every type of utv racing, just do it for BITD. Joey d should have every e-mail from every driver on rec for mint400 and championship. Come together as a group and the bring it to attention to BITD/UTVRA then you get respect from them. Cheating is not the next problem the next problem is passing and bigger cars racing all together on one track V2R/Silver state. Ex no passing alert/sirens you can't hear/hell no one knows when to pull over/hitting each other to heard trying to pass. You need to address these issues first before you deal with cheaters, because there are allot of 1st year driver coming into the sport.

This right here is all that needs to be said and done. Do this and the rest is academic. The committee needs a process or it's just 5 guys bickering instead of 50. The solution is a no brainer. Create a process where no process had previously existed. That's the only problem I see....now u can adjust the rules to reflect reality and enforceability. That's worked since the beginning of the civilized world. Will work for a group of competitively charged high octane testosterone boosted racers I believe.

 

[facteryfmf]

It's all fun and games until a turbo polaris shows up at V2R I august and wins

 

[IrateMarty]

with factory turbocharged engines [/B]must remain
stock as delivered from the factory. No changes or modifications are allowed, with
the exception of the air cleaner, header pipe, exhaust pipe, muffler and clutch. All
engine parts must remain stock. No aftermarket ECU’s. No aftermarket fuel
controllers. All electronic engine management parts must remain stock as delivered
from the factory. Turbocharged engines must be inspected and sealed prior to
racing. Do not wait till tech for this inspection. Contact Cory 602-769-6164

the ECU rule is what I am talking about its placed under the utv15 rule it applies to all models so alba/queen/benchmark/evolution/muzzy anybody offering re flash is technically illegal to BITD then. power commanders stand alone ecu all the above are illegal then. It's the way its worded and placed into the rules. If you had a panel some kind of driver association could and should be handled before this mess happened with bitd and utvra..

I think you are missing the part that the ECU rule is only for Factory turbo engines. That entire paragraph is only for factory turbo engines which is only the Turbo Mav right now.

 

[BrianReno]

The committee thing was brought up yesterday in this thread by Matt Parks. There are several posts missing from this the ad that were very insightful. Hmmm.

 

[Johnny]

My car will not do 90 MPH lol unless you drop it from a airplane ...

 

[Ignore Amos]

"My car will not do 90 MPH lol unless you drop it from a airplane ..." I saw over 90 mph on a GPS screen shot once but that could have been the previous car... I dont know.. but I would like to arrange as I bet most of the other teams would, your car being dropped from an airplane...

 

[the stripping shop]

I think you are missing the part that the ECU rule is only for Factory turbo engines. That entire paragraph is only for factory turbo engines which is only the Turbo Mav right now.

that's my point you can look at 2 different ways why would you not have separate section just for that. because its under the displacement and engine location so is it all pulled together or is separate its how each individual reads into it . I read it as factory ecu no re flash and no stand alone or fuel controller in bitd. You read it as factory ecu for turbo car cant be touched. were is the rule on ecu at or were was it bunched together at to apply to what manufacter blah blah do you see were its not a clear rule# there is were the problem lies.

 

[the stripping shop]

It's all fun and games until a turbo polaris shows up at V2R I august and wins

So your saying on your factory back team there is a Polaris rzr turbo car going to released before V2R?

 

[facteryfmf]

So your saying on your factory back team there is a Polaris rzr turbo car going to released before V2R?

Haha I wish. I'm 400 miles from the rest of my team so I have minimal knowledge of what goes on over there. And I sure hope they don't bc we are in the middle of building a brand new car (duplicate of our car that has 4000 miles on it now)!

 

[the stripping shop]

The committee thing was brought up yesterday in this thread by Matt Parks. There are several posts missing from this the ad that were very insightful. Hmmm.

I couldn't find it either were matt came up with it anywhere

 

[JoeyD23]

reading this 11 page cheater section that joey started is pretty funny. there is no answer to the cheater/tech/bitd problem. What is the answer start a driver association for BITD. Put 5 guys to rep drivers ex bill schueller, murray, joey d, justin cognito, adam from air dam. You get 5 different type of guys but you get one answer from them that rep the utv driver. Come together as a group with good ideas to grow and level the playing field hell it would lighten the load off of cory utvra. Don't do the isa thing and change everything/rules and make it work in every type of utv racing, just do it for BITD. Joey d should have every e-mail from every driver on rec for mint400 and championship. Come together as a group and the bring it to attention to BITD/UTVRA then you get respect from them. Cheating is not the next problem the next problem is passing and bigger cars racing all together on one track V2R/Silver state. Ex no passing alert/sirens you can't hear/hell no one knows when to pull over/hitting each other to heard trying to pass. You need to address these issues first before you deal with cheaters, because there are allot of 1st year driver coming into the sport.

I would be in to sit on a board that is for racers. I know I am not a full time driver / rider but I like to think I have some credibility with as much time and effort we have put into the class.

To do this, you would need all the racers to sign off and allow us to help shape decisions that affect the class.

I think this is a fair thing to have and I would add that we should have some short course influence as well. a UTV drivers union of sorts.

 

[JoeyD23]

The committee thing was brought up yesterday in this thread by Matt Parks. There are several posts missing from this the ad that were very insightful. Hmmm.

We have not removed one post so if a post was deleted it would only be by a user and would still show. Then again, we did switch severs in the middle of the day yesterday so its possible we may have lost a couple posts because of that.

 

[ironworks]

Your stock RZR 1000 has a speed limiter that activates at about 77mph. When you get close to 77mph Your RZR will start to close the throttle to limit your mph without you even noticing (sneaky). We fix this with this re-flash. We raise the limiter to 90mph which means your throttle will stay wide open if you want it to. To help you achieve a higher mph we raise your rev limiter to 9200rpm.

right from alba racing.

UTV-15 ENGINE LOCATION AND DISPLACEMENT:
All UTV classes Maximum engine displacement is 1000cc. UTV Pro Production
vehicles must use stock engine cases and cylinder head. Engine displacement and
location may be checked by UTV Racing Association at any time. The UTV
Racing Association reserves the right to mark or seal engine blocks prior to an
event and confiscate engines after the race. Confiscated engines may not be
returned.
Pro Production UTV class vehicles with factory turbocharged engines must remain
stock as delivered from the factory. No changes or modifications are allowed, with
the exception of the air cleaner, header pipe, exhaust pipe, muffler and clutch. All
engine parts must remain stock. No aftermarket ECU’s. No aftermarket fuel
controllers. All electronic engine management parts must remain stock as delivered
from the factory. Turbocharged engines must be inspected and sealed prior to
racing. Do not wait till tech for this inspection. Contact Cory 602-769-6164

the ECU rule is what I am talking about its placed under the utv15 rule it applies to all models so alba/queen/benchmark/evolution/muzzy anybody offering re flash is technically illegal to BITD then. power commanders stand alone ecu all the above are illegal then. It's the way its worded and placed into the rules. If you had a panel some kind of driver association could and should be handled before this mess happened with bitd and utvra.

Adam I under stand what you are saying with clutch but your saying queen didn't reflash badass rzr/ or utv inc car then Polaris didn't touch jaggy. all the above used factory ecu but were re flashed.

That rule only matters on the Turbo charged engines. The first line in the paragraph says that.

 

[///Airdam Clutches]

all XP1000 in general. 2 seat and 4 seat. 2014 and 2015. all have the same rev limiter. all have stroke limiters in the clutch. when the clutch maxes out with the limiting shims, you rev up and hit the rev limiter. when you remove the shims the clutch will close more, giving you more "gear ratio" thru the clutch and give you more MPH and you will then be limited by the 80mph speed limiter.

the 2 seater has more aggressive spring in the primary, the 4 seater has a softer spring in the primary. both with stock tires will reach the 80mph speed limiter. BUT running 80mph on a heavy SxS you are greatly increasing the load on your machine, wind resistance, friction from the tires on the ground, 80mph for a sustained period of time will blow belts. yet you can hold 70 for a LONG time. that 10 more MPH is what will put you into another level of headaches.