Are UTV Racers Cheating at BITD??

[JoeyD23]

Joey if you guys had gone by the "keep it simple stupid" rule your ISA deal may have taken off. But there was way to many classes to sort out, way to many rules that most felt were un founded, and you guus put the horse in front of the cart. You guys built a book NO org. Was willing to step up and use and i truely believe it was because it wasnt simple. BITD rules are simple.

Actually you are incorrect. While the book was not perfect WORCS did apply the ISA rule book and so did AVE Racing series.

While WORCS never ended up fully endorsing the org they did take our rule book, slightly modify it and run it. Our rules were not the problem and we had a lot of classes but we were very clear, an org does not need to run all the classes. Pick and choose what you want. At the time WORCS took Production 1000, 850 and 700. They later added the Pro class and now look, they have like 6 or 7 classes. So don't tell me our problem was we had too many when WORCS gets a fairly decent car count in each. We created the class structure we did that fit the vehicles at the time. The book would adapt as new vehicles came out.

The biggest problem the ISA had was that this sport did not embrace what we had created. We didn't create a law, we created a foundation. The rules could have been modified and the org could have been the sports voice in many different ways. But the general UTV public couldn't see past stupid little stuff like what you are mentioning. Instead of joining and supporting and then helping shape everyone did what they do best and that's complain and criticize. So what you all ended up with was 5 dedicated guys throwing their hands up and saying fine go figure it out on your own.

I'll tell you right now. Very few of you guys reading this know just how much work, time and money it was and took to build that org. I promise you, you won't get any of us to do it again. I'll sit on a board or support something but I won't waste my energy to do something like that again for any sport. It was very discouraging.

 

[JoeyD23]

nailed it. ISA wanted to take over utvra/worcs/bitd/score/lucas oil that was the problem. Iam saying I could care less about any of those to take over. You need to work with the driver/owners and be there voice of them and work with BITD/UTVRA only.

Take over?? lol that's the dumbest way to describe what we wanted to do.

What we wanted to WORK TOWARDS was a unification of rules like the AMA or FIA or any other respectable form of Motorsport. Take over? Give me a break. We didn't even have a chance to begin to work as a real org because people took these types of opinions instead of trying to help shape the org with us. We kept saying after year one we would and could vote for a new board to further help shape the org but nope. Everyone wants to complain but no one wanted to do anything about it. Let's see how long it will take for another org to pop up to support this class. My bet it never happens again.

 

[JoeyD23]

To be clear. This class and sport does need an ISA. Does the sport need rule unification for racing? No but it sure as hell wouldn't hurt so a guy on the east coast would know where his car fit in a race on the west coast. And to be clear, the rules we drew up weren't just for existing series' to adapt, they were for all the new series that were popping up. These series which have now arrived in droves could have all been running this book ensuring vehicle cross over. Again, we didn't put the horse in front of the cart, we were just too far ahead of our time.

And to once again be clear. The ISA wasn't just about racing, it was about unifying the voice of UTV enthusiasts so we could help fight for and shape our sport. It was so we could offer up a voice with strength in numbers to help fight land use issues and laws that affect our sport. It was way bigger than a set of rules which could have been changed and adapted by new board members over the years.

I'll be honest in saying that anyone who just looked at the negative side of the ISA and used that as an excuse not to support it makes me sick. The fact people who compete in or make money in this sport and could not find or see the value in what we were creating is beyond me.

But too little too late. We all moved on and shut the whole thing down. And for that I am really bummed. It could have been a great thing.

 

[george.felix]

To Joeys point so what did we end up with in place of ISA? Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith and make adjustments to the program as you go. Like I said before, sometimes you just have to make decisions without all the information......which is most of the time. Doing something is usually better than doing nothing in my experience. At the very least it's a start.

 

[T-wrecks]

The only way you will get an organization like ISA to take off is to get the biggest players in the game to adopt it right away. The problem was I didn't see anyone from SCORE or BITD adopting it. They don't need a third party telling them how to promote.

 

[george.felix]

The only way you will get an organization like ISA to take off is to get the biggest players in the game to adopt it right away. The problem was I didn't see anyone from SCORE or BITD adopting it. They don't need a third party telling them how to promote.

OR like Nikal suggested run a separate series for Utv, bikes, and quads. Choose 7 races from the various series and the most points will determine the championship. Call it Desert Championship Series or whatever. The series would negotiate with Score and/or BITD to get the best "deal" for the series. If another series/promoter could fill the void. Like any other business when it becomes excessively expensive and profitable then competition will emerge. It cost $1200 plus $275 to race the mint because it's a monopoly. Competition for Utv, bikes, and quads all in a single series would be healthy for the sport and make for better races in those classes. The question is are the numbers there?

For example the series could have negotiated for more spots say 100 instead 73 and possibly lower the entry fee, start positions, basically anything could be negotiated prior to setting the race calendar for the year.

 

[JoeyD23]

The only way you will get an organization like ISA to take off is to get the biggest players in the game to adopt it right away. The problem was I didn't see anyone from SCORE or BITD adopting it. They don't need a third party telling them how to promote.

The ISA wasn't trying to promote races. We were simply trying unify a rule system. The ISA rules for desert were what was currently being ran for BITD / SCORE. The rules we drew up weren't for taking over series' they were to give all the new series a set standard of rules to just adopt, essentially plug and play. I can't tell you how many calls I have fielded over the last 5 years from promoters asking me what rules to run. This would have solved all those questions.

Bigger than the ISAs rules was the power the org could have had to help stand up for racers rights, improve driver safety both for race and play and help unify the voice of the community to assist in general land use battles. Again, the ISA was and is needed. But it's going to take a tragedy either in a massive land closure, regulation on UTVs or the continued division in racing before people realize what good the org could have been.

#BigPicture

 

[Rusty5150]

The ISA wasn't trying to promote races. We were simply trying unify a rule system. The ISA rules for desert were what was currently being ran for BITD / SCORE. The rules we drew up weren't for taking over series' they were to give all the new series a set standard of rules to just adopt, essentially plug and play. I can't tell you how many calls I have fielded over the last 5 years from promoters asking me what rules to run. This would have solved all those questions.

Bigger than the ISAs rules was the power the org could have had to help stand up for racers rights, improve driver safety both for race and play and help unify the voice of the community to assist in general land use battles. Again, the ISA was and is needed. But it's going to take a tragedy either in a massive land closure, regulation on UTVs or the continued division in racing before people realize what good the org could have been.

#BigPicture

Such a bummer, the ISA would have been great for this sport.

 

[the stripping shop]

Take over?? lol that's the dumbest way to describe what we wanted to do.

What we wanted to WORK TOWARDS was a unification of rules like the AMA or FIA or any other respectable form of Motorsport. Take over? Give me a break. We didn't even have a chance to begin to work as a real org because people took these types of opinions instead of trying to help shape the org with us. We kept saying after year one we would and could vote for a new board to further help shape the org but nope. Everyone wants to complain but no one wanted to do anything about it. Let's see how long it will take for another org to pop up to support this class. My bet it never happens again.

Why didn't score take and use or modify the ISA rules it was about the time the ISA was going. Goes back to cognito was saying keep it simple and stupid. Maybe "takeover" is not what you want to here but you wanted ISA rules to be applied over the UTVRA correct. Or you could say you wanted ISA rules to be used like WORCS series and then highly modified so they were kind of used but not really used. Yes I do understand what the ISA was doing. Trying to make 1 organization every utv could use or go too from worcs/lucas/bitd/score/mud racing/gncc all the above. But it goes back to cognito keep it simple and stupid. Start with 1 UTWC and work forward then mint 400, 2015 or 2016 BITD season. I am not saying get rid of UTVRA, I am saying to work on panel/driver/owner association to bring a voice to UTVRA and BITD.

 

[george.felix]

Uh I don't think Cognito said keep it stupid because it already is. Think what you mean is simple. Lot of new teams don't understand what UTVRA is today. Whatever it used to be is a moot point. It's my understanding that it's just a shell organization with Cory as the only officer.

 

[warlock]

Well I guess since Cory was the one who baby sat the UTVRA all of these years good and bad it is kind of his Baby. Nobody else did it or wanted the responsibility till now. LMAO.

 

[JoeyD23]

Well I guess since Cory was the one who baby sat the UTVRA all of these years good and bad it is kind of his Baby. Nobody else did it or wanted the responsibility till now. LMAO.

If you have been following UTV racing at BITD the past few years you would see this argument has popped up more than a few times.

 

[JoeyD23]

Why didn't score take and use or modify the ISA rules it was about the time the ISA was going. Goes back to cognito was saying keep it simple and stupid. Maybe "takeover" is not what you want to here but you wanted ISA rules to be applied over the UTVRA correct. Or you could say you wanted ISA rules to be used like WORCS series and then highly modified so they were kind of used but not really used. Yes I do understand what the ISA was doing. Trying to make 1 organization every utv could use or go too from worcs/lucas/bitd/score/mud racing/gncc all the above. But it goes back to cognito keep it simple and stupid. Start with 1 UTWC and work forward then mint 400, 2015 or 2016 BITD season. I am not saying get rid of UTVRA, I am saying to work on panel/driver/owner association to bring a voice to UTVRA and BITD.

Its not that TAKEOVER isn't what I wanted to hear, its NOT what we wanted to do. We wanted orgs to eventually fall in line with a universal set of rules like the AMA. Its not that hard to understand lol

You go to GNCC you race AMA rules, you go to SUPERCROSS you race AMA rules, you go to OUTDOOR MX NATIONALS you race AMA rules, you go to District 38 you race AMA rules, etc etc etc. The AMA fights for riders rights, the AMA protects riders, the sport and the companies within, the AMA sanctions the biggest series but more than that gives the smaller series a basic set of rules to adopt and abide by.

Its not that hard to understand and anyone who doesn't think this sport being an international sport doesn't need or couldn't benefit from an AMA for UTV's is either in denial or just wants to maybe keep things stupid as you said lol

The problem is, 99% of everyone here will bitch, moan and complain and no one will actually get off their own asses to donate, participate and help shape the future of our sport. Everyone will sit here and type their glorious ideas out and tell us all how things should be done but majority here won't even take 2 minutes to sign an online petition to help save our sport from an impending land closure issue. Thats reality. And if anyone reading this looks in the mirror and realizes they are one of these people then do us all a favor and please just move along to another thread. As far as I am concerned the only people who should be here complaining or offering suggestions are people who are willing to actually do something to help the situation!

 

[facteryfmf]

Its not that TAKEOVER isn't what I wanted to hear, its NOT what we wanted to do. We wanted orgs to eventually fall in line with a universal set of rules like the AMA. Its not that hard to understand lol

You go to GNCC you race AMA rules, you go to SUPERCROSS you race AMA rules, you go to OUTDOOR MX NATIONALS you race AMA rules, you go to District 38 you race AMA rules, etc etc etc. The AMA fights for riders rights, the AMA protects riders, the sport and the companies within, the AMA sanctions the biggest series but more than that gives the smaller series a basic set of rules to adopt and abide by.

Its not that hard to understand and anyone who doesn't think this sport being an international sport doesn't need or couldn't benefit from an AMA for UTV's is either in denial or just wants to maybe keep things stupid as you said lol

The problem is, 99% of everyone here will bitch, moan and complain and no one will actually get off their own asses to donate, participate and help shape the future of our sport. Everyone will sit here and type their glorious ideas out and tell us all how things should be done but majority here won't even take 2 minutes to sign an online petition to help save our sport from an impending land closure issue. Thats reality. And if anyone reading this looks in the mirror and realizes they are one of these people then do us all a favor and please just move along to another thread. As far as I am concerned the only people who should be here complaining or offering suggestions are people who are willing to actually do something to help the situation!

Supercross is FIM rules

 

[JoeyD23]

Supercross is FIM rules

http://www.amasupercross.com/rules/pdf/2015/AMA_Supercross_Rulebook14_Web.pdf

 

[facteryfmf]

FIM is the sanctioning body. Ask JS7!

 

[JoeyD23]

You must have missed the part where we were discussing the RULES... lol

the FIM was added to the AMA rule set for international purposes and for unification. Same thing I want for UTVs just that it would be a long time before we needed a join unification for international.

Moto racing structure is a bit more sophisticated you could say then UTV racing structure is currently. I know I just really shocked everyone with that line.. lol

 

[the stripping shop]

Its not that TAKEOVER isn't what I wanted to hear, its NOT what we wanted to do. We wanted orgs to eventually fall in line with a universal set of rules like the AMA. Its not that hard to understand lol

You go to GNCC you race AMA rules, you go to SUPERCROSS you race AMA rules, you go to OUTDOOR MX NATIONALS you race AMA rules, you go to District 38 you race AMA rules, etc etc etc. The AMA fights for riders rights, the AMA protects riders, the sport and the companies within, the AMA sanctions the biggest series but more than that gives the smaller series a basic set of rules to adopt and abide by.

Its not that hard to understand and anyone who doesn't think this sport being an international sport doesn't need or couldn't benefit from an AMA for UTV's is either in denial or just wants to maybe keep things stupid as you said lol

The problem is, 99% of everyone here will bitch, moan and complain and no one will actually get off their own asses to donate, participate and help shape the future of our sport. Everyone will sit here and type their glorious ideas out and tell us all how things should be done but majority here won't even take 2 minutes to sign an online petition to help save our sport from an impending land closure issue. Thats reality. And if anyone reading this looks in the mirror and realizes they are one of these people then do us all a favor and please just move along to another thread. As far as I am concerned the only people who should be here complaining or offering suggestions are people who are willing to actually do something to help the situation!

You are correct but ama/usac/nascar/ every other sanction body is well funded and started small. I am sure ama didn't take on all at first.I don't know how ama started or how it was built but did the ISA take a look at there business plan the same, did ISA consult with ama when building this business, Did the ISA consult with ama on helping or taking over when it was coming to close. I don't know that answer either. But every ex you come up with starts with funding for the ISA. So maybe present the ISA to AMA and see what they say. And yes I do support and everybody support all land closure and impending closer when you buy a new utv/snowmobile/dirt bike/quad any form of OHV vehicle because everyone of those manufacters step up to save our land.

 

[JoeyD23]

You are correct but ama/usac/nascar/ every other sanction body is well funded and started small. I am sure ama didn't take on all at first.I don't know how ama started or how it was built but did the ISA take a look at there business plan the same, did ISA consult with ama when building this business, Did the ISA consult with ama on helping or taking over when it was coming to close. I don't know that answer either. But every ex you come up with starts with funding for the ISA. So maybe present the ISA to AMA and see what they say. And yes I do support and everybody support all land closure and impending closer when you buy a new utv/snowmobile/dirt bike/quad any form of OHV vehicle because everyone of those manufacters step up to save our land.

I don't know how many of the OEMs actually do much to help fight for our land.. a few do, but thats another topic.

We didn't expect to take on and have every race league adopt our rules or join our org immediatley. Problem was we couldn't even get our own ENTHUSIASTS to help back the foundation we laid to support to even get to that point. Everyone has an argument yet no one wants to actually do anything but argue.

We didn't consult with the AMA directly that I can remember however it was possible that Reid did. Reid at Kawasaki has just a little experience with the AMA.. lol Just a tad... He help seed the ISA and sat on the board with us. Again, we had all the right pieces to the puzzle whether anyone wants to finally admit it or not. All we ever caught was the negatives, no one wanted to support the positives. Now the sport is still sitting at zero because our own enthusiasts, racers, etc couldn't see past their own noses...

 

[BiggJim]

I will stand on my opinion. Im not saying you guys didnt have a good idea. I just think the rules we a little too indepth for anyone to agree upon. Imho if you guys had kept it a bit more simple folks would have got behind it, however from what i remember about it you guys treated it as if it was gonna be the law of the land. Or at least thats how i perceived it. I remember reading the entire rule book and thought WTF...you cant be serious.