Are UTV Racers Cheating at BITD??

[///Airdam Clutches]

from what i understand, the rules were set and intended so that no team could run an aftermarket or relfashed ECU. this goes for everyone, turbo, non turbo, everybody. the intentions were for everyone to run on the same plane, an even scale for every racer, no advantages for factory backed teams and race ECUs ect. the rule was set before the season began and the ones who set the rules had every intention on making this work out.

somewhere down the lines, ran into an issue trying to get the necessary software/hardware to police the ECU systems. the OEM manufacturers would not/could not supply the necessary software/hardware to be able to police ECU components and programs so therefore it became hard to enforce this rule, that with all intentions, was to help make the racing more fair, and not one-sided. unfortunately without the ability to actually check and enforce this rule, alot of folks have taken the free air and "ran away with the race" so to speak.

 

[BrianReno]

We have not removed one post so if a post was deleted it would only be by a user and would still show. Then again, we did switch severs in the middle of the day yesterday so its possible we may have lost a couple posts because of that.

That maybe it then Joey as there was some good posts by Matt P and Bill S.

 

[george.felix]

I would be in to sit on a board that is for racers. I know I am not a full time driver / rider but I like to think I have some credibility with as much time and effort we have put into the class.

To do this, you would need all the racers to sign off and allow us to help shape decisions that affect the class.

I think this is a fair thing to have and I would add that we should have some short course influence as well. a UTV drivers union of sorts.

I second the motion for JoeyD and Bill Schuler. Who are the other 3 or 1 because 3 or 5 makes no difference. Might be better start with 3 and add a couple more spots later. In any case when do you start?

 

[the stripping shop]

I would be in to sit on a board that is for racers. I know I am not a full time driver / rider but I like to think I have some credibility with as much time and effort we have put into the class.

To do this, you would need all the racers to sign off and allow us to help shape decisions that affect the class.

I think this is a fair thing to have and I would add that we should have some short course influence as well. a UTV drivers union of sorts.

joey d you need to concentrate on bitd first get the respect then you can help other series. That was the problem with the ISA tried to do to much and nobody listen or cared so you guys got no respect from anybody and it failed. You don't need every driver/car owner/builder to do this. You need 5 guys a good plan and execute it properly. Do you think utvra asked for every manufacter and desert racer to sign off no. This is a problem in desert racing period from trophy trucks to bikes. no voice just allot of complaining on the good old inter web.

 

[the stripping shop]

That rule only matters on the Turbo charged engines. The first line in the paragraph says that.

UTV-15 T TURBOCHARGERS:
Pro Production UTV class Factory turbochargers are allowed. Turbochargers
must not be modified, altered or changed. Turbochargers must remain exactly as
delivered from the factory. Turbochargers must be inspected and sealed prior
to racing. Do not wait till tech for this inspection. Contact Cory 602-769-6164
Unlimited UTV class Any turbocharger is allowed. Any modifications are
allowed. Any ECU is allowed. Any fuel controller is allowed. Any engine
electronics are allowed.

shouldn't it be placed under rule utv-15t then to be clear as day then. again agree to disagree

 

[the stripping shop]

I second the motion for JoeyD and Bill Schuler. Who are the other 3 or 1 because 3 or 5 makes no difference. Might be better start with 3 and add a couple more spots later. In any case when do you start?

you would have to do 5 those 2 are heavily influenced by Polaris.

 

[motive]

I would nominate Nikal to be on the board. His knowledge of the entire sport of desert racing with the many lessons learned the hard way in classes that burned themselves out would be very beneficial to growing the UTV class.

I hope Cory will be a part of this discussion. Its too bad he was offended as I don't think anyone meant any. I don't think anyone even believes there are any teams that are getting an advantage by cheating. I think most everyone hear is just concerned that the politics of making and enforcing rules doesn't harm the class or open up advantages for certain teams in the future.

Joey, thanks for stepping up to saying you would be a part of the panel. Even though I haven't entirely agreed with you on the issue of the land rush start I would second you be a part of the panel.

 

[ALBANATE]

I don't race BITD, and may be able to help...

Nate
Alba Racing

 

[JoeyD23]

joey d you need to concentrate on bitd first get the respect then you can help other series. That was the problem with the ISA tried to do to much and nobody listen or cared so you guys got no respect from anybody and it failed. You don't need every driver/car owner/builder to do this. You need 5 guys a good plan and execute it properly. Do you think utvra asked for every manufacter and desert racer to sign off no. This is a problem in desert racing period from trophy trucks to bikes. no voice just allot of complaining on the good old inter web.

I think we were too far ahead of our time. If people in this sport couldn't get behind an organization founded by myself, Jeff Knoll, Reid Nordin, Mike Lasher and Tim Orchard (OMF) then I don't know if this sport will support any org that pops up. Reid is a 20-30 veteran of Team Green Kawasaki and today runs Team Green, Jeff Knoll is creator of King Of The Hammers and has a host of other credentials, and Mike and Tim are the co-founders of the UTVRA and both have major businesses in the UTV world with SXS Performance and OMF Performance. That was the dream team of UTV board members as far as I'm concerned. lol

We bit off a lot but what we did was formulate a comprehensive org that had bases covered vs. just popping up with no set agenda and goals. We had a rule book, a plan for membership both for racers and enthusiasts and a list of contacts that i don't think any other group of guys could ever match as it pertained to off-road, UTV, land use, etc etc etc.

Again, I think we were just a little too far ahead of our time. And its still a shame that the masses didn't get behind it and embrace it for what it was.

 

[BiggJim]

Joey if you guys had gone by the "keep it simple stupid" rule your ISA deal may have taken off. But there was way to many classes to sort out, way to many rules that most felt were un founded, and you guus put the horse in front of the cart. You guys built a book NO org. Was willing to step up and use and i truely believe it was because it wasnt simple. BITD rules are simple.

 

[the stripping shop]

Joey if you guys had gone by the "keep it simple stupid" rule your ISA deal may have taken off. But there was way to many classes to sort out, way to many rules that most felt were un founded, and you guus put the horse in front of the cart. You guys built a book NO org. Was willing to step up and use and i truely believe it was because it wasnt simple. BITD rules are simple.

nailed it. ISA wanted to take over utvra/worcs/bitd/score/lucas oil that was the problem. Iam saying I could care less about any of those to take over. You need to work with the driver/owners and be there voice of them and work with BITD/UTVRA only.

 

[badassmav]

Joey if you guys had gone by the "keep it simple stupid" rule your ISA deal may have taken off. But there was way to many classes to sort out, way to many rules that most felt were un founded, and you guus put the horse in front of the cart. You guys built a book NO org. Was willing to step up and use and i truely believe it was because it wasnt simple. BITD rules are simple.

If Joey put the horse in front of the cart, he'd be trotting to victory! Lol.

 

[Rusty5150]

Its cool to see how we stack up against the other classes.


I am not sure how these classes stack up but I pulled this data from the MINT 400 2015. This was the morning race, with 8 classes competing. Class 1000 was by far the fastest and a Class 2400 car was top 5 overall. I removed them from this data. It looks like a Class 1100 or a Class 2000 are the closest spec wise to (Class 9). To make it easy I added the class definition per BITD rule book off to the right. I color coded each class.

Overall Position Class Car # Total Time (3 laps)
19 Trophy Lite 6022 7:15:28.804
22 Trophy Lite 6044 7:24:38.913
23 Trophy Lite 6099 7:27:37.114
24 Trophy Lite 6025 7:28:09.225
25 Pro UTV 1978 7:29:27.714
27 Class 1100 1127 7:30:41.042
28 Pro UTV 1934 7:31:22.984
29 Pro UTV 1962 7:34:00.836
30 Class 1100 1152 7:34:52.247
31 Trophy Lite 6011 7:35:14.730
32 Pro UTV 1919 7:37:09.105
33 Trophy Lite 6048 7:37:13.464
34 Trophy Lite 6002 7:40:10.944
35 Trophy Lite 6031 7:42:21.016
36 Class 2000 2008 7:42:37.882
39 Pro UTV 1902 8:02:00.447
40 Pro UTV 1918 8:02:58.646
42 Pro UTV 1988 8:03:42.725
43 Pro UTV 1975 8:07:43.403
46 Pro UTV 1916 8:14:46.239
47 Pro UTV 1917 8:18:39.446
48 Class 2000 2066 8:20:57.544
49 Pro UTV 1936 8:29:36.804
50 Class 2000 2002 8:32:15.290
51 Class 3000 3003 8:33:48.010



CLASS 6000
TROPHY LITE SPEC

CLASS 1900
PRO UTV PRODUCTION CLASS
Production UTV’s, manufactured by registered companies, that issues Vin #’s. Companies must produce a minimum number of units to be ACCEPTED. 1000cc MAX and 30" tire max, 1 shock per wheel.

CLASS 1100
(CLASS 10 LIGHTS)
OPEN WHEEL – BEAM SUSPENSION
AIR COOLED ENGINE & FORD PRODUCTION
2-LITER 16 VALVE ENGINE dohc i-4 WATER COOLED
One or two seat open-wheeled cars, no fenders, and limited to air-cooled engines and twin beam suspension
with trailing arms.

CLASS 2000
Open-wheel restricted suspension 1600CC
Single & two-seat cars limited to 1600CC
VW engine & VW type-1 suspension system
GENERAL REGULATIONS
Class entrants shall comply with all class and applicable general regulations

CLASS 3000
DESERT LITES – GM ECOTEC POWERED 4-CYL
PRODUCTION MOTOR, SHORT WHEEL BASE
MINIS
Two seat open-wheeled mini cars, and two seat mini trucks. VEHICLES MUST HAVE TWO
OCCUPANTS.

 

[NIKAL]

Its cool to see how we stack up against the other classes.


I am not sure how these classes stack up but I pulled this data from the MINT 400 2015. This was the morning race, with 8 classes competing. Class 1000 was by far the fastest and a Class 2400 car was top 5 overall. I removed them from this data. It looks like a Class 1100 or a Class 2000 are the closest spec wise to (Class 9). To make it easy I added the class definition per BITD rule book off to the right. I color coded each class.

Overall Position Class Car # Total Time (3 laps)
19 Trophy Lite 6022 7:15:28.804
22 Trophy Lite 6044 7:24:38.913
23 Trophy Lite 6099 7:27:37.114
24 Trophy Lite 6025 7:28:09.225
25 Pro UTV 1978 7:29:27.714
27 Class 1100 1127 7:30:41.042
28 Pro UTV 1934 7:31:22.984
29 Pro UTV 1962 7:34:00.836
30 Class 1100 1152 7:34:52.247
31 Trophy Lite 6011 7:35:14.730
32 Pro UTV 1919 7:37:09.105
33 Trophy Lite 6048 7:37:13.464
34 Trophy Lite 6002 7:40:10.944
35 Trophy Lite 6031 7:42:21.016
36 Class 2000 2008 7:42:37.882
39 Pro UTV 1902 8:02:00.447
40 Pro UTV 1918 8:02:58.646
42 Pro UTV 1988 8:03:42.725
43 Pro UTV 1975 8:07:43.403
46 Pro UTV 1916 8:14:46.239
47 Pro UTV 1917 8:18:39.446
48 Class 2000 2066 8:20:57.544
49 Pro UTV 1936 8:29:36.804
50 Class 2000 2002 8:32:15.290
51 Class 3000 3003 8:33:48.010



CLASS 6000
TROPHY LITE SPEC

CLASS 1900
PRO UTV PRODUCTION CLASS
Production UTV’s, manufactured by registered companies, that issues Vin #’s. Companies must produce a minimum number of units to be ACCEPTED. 1000cc MAX and 30" tire max, 1 shock per wheel.

CLASS 1100
(CLASS 10 LIGHTS)
OPEN WHEEL – BEAM SUSPENSION
AIR COOLED ENGINE & FORD PRODUCTION
2-LITER 16 VALVE ENGINE dohc i-4 WATER COOLED
One or two seat open-wheeled cars, no fenders, and limited to air-cooled engines and twin beam suspension
with trailing arms.

CLASS 2000
Open-wheel restricted suspension 1600CC
Single & two-seat cars limited to 1600CC
VW engine & VW type-1 suspension system
GENERAL REGULATIONS
Class entrants shall comply with all class and applicable general regulations

CLASS 3000
DESERT LITES – GM ECOTEC POWERED 4-CYL
PRODUCTION MOTOR, SHORT WHEEL BASE
MINIS
Two seat open-wheeled mini cars, and two seat mini trucks. VEHICLES MUST HAVE TWO
OCCUPANTS.

Rusty,
None of these classes listed are close to a class 9 car. BITD Class 2000, is a Score and everywhere else 1600 car. BITD class 1100 is a Score and everywhere else class 12 car. Class 3 is basically a Trophy Lite class for those vehicles that are not Trophy Lite's. Remember TL is a spec class built by TL. You cant build a TL, you must buy one from TL, just like how Pro Truck was years ago.

A class 9 car is a 100 inch wheel base buggy with a 1600 cc engine with I think a 8.5 to 1 compression. Suspension is VW ball Joint in the front & VW swing axle in the rear. A class 9 car will have about 8 inches of front wheel travel and 10 in the rear. Class 9 also has shock shaft specs, and must run steal wheels.

BITD does not bring in the limited buggy classes like Score or Snore does. So to compare BITD times with those classes is not going to be accurate, as the fast, quality limited buggy teams are going to be at those other series.

 

[///Airdam Clutches]

i think if we were able to choose any tire size we want, i would run a 33" mickey thompson tire and start dropping those times significantly. the clear favorite of the class if the ultracross tire. its a clear winner in the desert. but to make it live you have to run so much air in it, that its hard and it ballooned up and rolls terribly in the corners. with a tire that has a sidewall that wont puncture when you run a lower tire pressure, you can get a larger roll out, better footprint on the ground, more absorption of the shockloads from the terrain, and be able to drive so much faster and harder. you could sustain so much more MPH in every situation with a better tire choice and larger roll out. the better ground clearance would help keep these guys out of the rocks, the less tire pressure would allow the tire to help absorb shock and let you drive harder without fear of totaling the car in a rough rock section, and be able to run faster and stronger and longer. larger tires brings on belt and clutch issues. luckily every manufacturer has now stepped up and builds mud specific machines with lower geared transmissions. running one of these gear reduction trans, would allow you to run a larger tire, without an increased load on the clutches. the larger roll out of the tire would allow you to have the top speeds you need, the gear reduction trans would take the load off the clutches.

i think with a car like MB motorsports has set up, and S3 has set up, and UTV inc has set up, with their machines, and driving ability, a tire that would allow them to push faster, you could start seeing alot closer to top 10 overall times in something like the mint and parker where its rough. in a race like V2R where the trucks stretch it out at 120+ for miles and miles, their average speed will be unmatchable, but in a rough race, like parker and the mint, you could see UTV overall times alot closer to the top 10 fastest lap times.

 

[Rusty5150]

Rusty,
None of these classes listed are close to a class 9 car. BITD Class 2000, is a Score and everywhere else 1600 car. BITD class 1100 is a Score and everywhere else class 12 car. Class 3 is basically a Trophy Lite class for those vehicles that are not Trophy Lite's. Remember TL is a spec class built by TL. You cant build a TL, you must buy one from TL, just like how Pro Truck was years ago.

A class 9 car is a 100 inch wheel base buggy with a 1600 cc engine with I think a 8.5 to 1 compression. Suspension is VW ball Joint in the front & VW swing axle in the rear. A class 9 car will have about 8 inches of front wheel travel and 10 in the rear. Class 9 also has shock shaft specs, and must run steal wheels.

BITD does not bring in the limited buggy classes like Score or Snore does. So to compare BITD times with those classes is not going to be accurate, as the fast, quality limited buggy classes are going to be at those other series.

I understand that. At rage would a Class 9 beat a BITD Class 1100?

CLASS 1100
(CLASS 10 LIGHTS)
OPEN WHEEL – BEAM SUSPENSION
AIR COOLED ENGINE & FORD PRODUCTION
2-LITER 16 VALVE ENGINE dohc i-4 WATER COOLED One or two seat open-wheeled cars, no fenders, and limited to air-cooled engines and twin beam suspension
with trailing arms.

 

[NIKAL]

This Thread has gone 10 different directions from what it's original intent was. I also think many are getting away from the Class Rep idea like Matt Parks, myself and a few other were suggesting. I dont think having an Organization like what Joey and the others tried to start is going to work or be needed. Maybe at the time when UTV racing was just starting it was. But doing so now would almost be like starting a Union, and we know that is a not a good idea.

The idea is having Reps for the class (The 1900 Desert class, not all UTV racing as a whole.) Let all the other forms of UTV racing, short course, back woods ect... run their races & rules themselves. We are talking desert racing here. Even with the Rep system, the Reps are not making the rules. Reps act as a sound board or class contact and if they feel there is a reason for a rule change, its them as a collective group that will speak with the series promoter and then put the possible rule change to a Class Vote. Many years ago Score used to use the Class Rep system and Snore still does. The people voting are the racers who are registered to race in the BITD or Score desert class. Remember its mandatory that both Racing Series follow the same rules. You will kill the class if you start having different rules for different series.

If you have not read my thread The State of the UTV Desert Racing Class please do.
http://www.utvunderground.com/forum...he-utv-desert-racing-class.17315/#post-176001

 

[NIKAL]

I understand that. At rage would a Class 9 beat a BITD Class 1100?

CLASS 1100
(CLASS 10 LIGHTS)
OPEN WHEEL – BEAM SUSPENSION
AIR COOLED ENGINE & FORD PRODUCTION
2-LITER 16 VALVE ENGINE dohc i-4 WATER COOLED One or two seat open-wheeled cars, no fenders, and limited to air-cooled engines and twin beam suspension
with trailing arms.

No! Basically a Class 1100 or as the rest of the world calls them class 12 (Score Lites). A class 12 car runs a bigger VW Air cooled engine, with twice the power. Really the only difference between class 10 & class 12 is class 12 must run a VW concept front beam, and class 12 runs an air cooled VW engine. The class 12 front suspension will pull 17-18 inches of travel and the engines for a single seat are 2020cc's and a two seat would be 2120cc's and both use the Weber 44 carb.

Also your not seeing the best class 12 cars racing BITD. The fast guys are racing either Score or Snore. For some reason years ago Casey alienated the buggy classes. Casey has always been a Bike guy and when he expanded into 4 wheels he adapted the trucks, but I believe that as because he was able to get Ford support early on.

BTW BITD screwed up class 1100 / 12 by letting that class run a Ford engine, as no other series allows this in this class. BITD did this because of 1 racer (Banning Motorsports) and for the fact that Ford pays BITD sponsor money.

 

[george.felix]

Too many chiefs not enough Indians. Just do something and let it evolve adjust as you go. Sometimes you have to make decisions and move forward without all the information and no guarantees.

 

[UTVMike24]

This Thread has gone 10 different directions from what it's original intent was. I also think many are getting away from the Class Rep idea like Matt Parks, myself and a few other were suggesting. I dont think having an Organization like what Joey and the others tried to start is going to work or be needed. Maybe at the time when UTV racing was just starting it was. But doing so now would almost be like starting a Union, and we know that is a not a good idea.

The idea is having Reps for the class (The 1900 Desert class, not all UTV racing as a whole.) Let all the other forms of UTV racing, short course, back woods ect... run their races & rules themselves. We are talking desert racing here. Even with the Rep system, the Reps are not making the rules. Reps act as a sound board or class contact and if they feel there is a reason for a rule change, its them as a collective group that will speak with the series promoter and then put the possible rule change to a Class Vote. Many years ago Score used to use the Class Rep system and Snore still does. The people voting are the racers who are registered to race in the BITD or Score desert class. Remember its mandatory that both Racing Series follow the same rules. You will kill the class if you start having different rules for different series.

If you have not read my thread The State of the UTV Desert Racing Class please do.
http://www.utvunderground.com/forum...he-utv-desert-racing-class.17315/#post-176001

I agree !!