Incident on 3N93 Holcomb Creek on Saturday 7-14-12

[Doug Guimond]

An incident occurred on 7-14-12 on 3N93 Holcomb Creek in the San Bernardino National Forest between members of this forum and some Adopt-A-Trail volunteers.

There are ways to fight for our rights to recreate in OHVs on the backroads of the SBNF. Creating an incident with folks who have volunteered more than 7000 hours in the last 3 years to get 3N93 open is not the way to go about it.

Hopefully this forum is self policed and you will take care of the situation in house.

 

[tomcav]

 

[Trail cop]

Yes we are self policed and thank you for your concern and you 7000 hours of playing in the woods! Now explain what was done to your precious trail (Not Passable road) that would close it? Because of SXSs? I smell snobbery of the worst kind! Some how a 3500lb Jeep is better equipped to travel this trail than a 1400lb four wheeldrive? Please take your high horse somewhere else! You are always welcome to ride with us!!!

Ahhh but you see, we can not just ride with you. Our rigs are not allowed on most of the trails that you can go on all the time. And you are right, it is a precious trail. You have no idea how precious. And again, it is not our trail. It is
OUR (as in everyone's) trail to enjoy, but there are rules. I can't help that. But there are plenty of places for each mode of transportation to wheel, and we are working on making more all the time. Why don't you get involved? It will open your eyes.

 

[Trail cop]

"Open my eyes" I have been a jeep owner and member of the Hemet Jeep club for years! I have met with Fienstien, Boxer, and Sonny Bono (Best of them all) and it makes very little difference in the long run! This government has over stepped its authority and I hope will go broke sooner than later! I will ride where the CVC says I can along with local laws, your sign doesn't have the department of transportation approval and means nothing! It is not a state or county maintained roadway! It is a trail, logging road, or Forest service road built before 1971!

I don't think I can open your eyes. Come to the AAT meeting Wednesday, perhaps the powers that be can open them for you. But come with an open mind. I've already apologized for any bad behavior on our part, so how about lets move past the pissing contest and get to the meat of the matter. As for your license I can't say anything about that, I'm not a cop (despite my forum handle). I've said this too many times already, the San Bernardino Forest Service sets rules for the roads and rails within the boundary of the forest. Regardless of what you think you you know, there are some things you don't, and that is why I am AGAIN inviting you to come to the meeting.

 

[offroader]

You had a chance to talk to us politely at the trail head and explain what damage we were doing compared to the jeeps or a Suzuki Side Kick, but you chose to be rude, and excluding! You never bothered to see that there were licensed Vehicles! Check CVC Div 16 38025, more to come!

I was there and can speak from experience. Everyone I spoke to or saw discussing the issues were quite pleasant other then the guy in the first UTV. He was the one that was rude and continued to use foul language. Even making the reference to black people in the back of the bus. Quite immature from what I witnessed.

Also, in reference to your comment about the sign not being "offical" is incorrect. I personally applied the new stickers after the fire by direction of the USFS.

No one has been rude to you just trying to educate which you seem to have a hard time grasping. If you want to change the rules get involved. It's that simple.

 

[offroader]

gd bless you, you represent the off-road community well!

Thank you. I have put a lot in to it and because of my participation you were able to enjoy the trail. It's a great feeling.

 

[Trail cop]

So you were so mad at those uppity SXSs using your trail you put "Foul language" in my moth? I never said one bad thing to any of you even with your rude attitude! You have to get the department of transportation approval for any Road sign and since you saw it is a Street legal Road you have to follow the rules as well! So you see the Bureaucrats set us against each other and we eat our own! So no one ever thought you to share? Or to stand up to the Government for your rights? Just whatever Ranger Rick says Yogie! Again not one word about what we were doing other than driving over an un-maintained road! It is not maintained by the County, State, or Fed and not subject to being a street legal ROAD! But I like what your smoking! The only reason I said anything is the glares, comments, and rude attitude conveyed by the group! The ignorance about our vehicles is amazing and the "Rules" were written before our class of vehicles was even thought of! In a Country where your supposed to free to pursue your happiness it is legal until some one can tell my why not! BTW if you were one of those wearing the scowl on your face staring through us, gd bless you, you represent the off-road community well!

It is obvious we are getting nowhere here so I will wish you happy wheeling. No win-win today...

 

[Doug Guimond]

Well......
It's pretty clear from the replies that there is an anarchist on this site who is going to do what he wants, when he wants, and where he wants. It's also pretty clear that this is the same attitude that he brought with him out on the trail.

Hopefully he doesn't speak for everyone on this site

 

[66cummins]

First off, I don't think of ANYONE on here as a speaker for ALL of us on this forum. Clear as mud?

I do not agree with any fellow offroader calling and turning anyone in if they are out recreating and doing it responsibly. I have done the jeep thing, I have had atv's, toyotas, dirt bikes and utv's. I know that utv's are a gray area for many trails, mine is wider than 60". That means I am limited to where I can ride. I also feel that the F.S. has unfairly "ruled" my machine off of thousands of miles of trails with the 50" rule. They are public lands, and if there is not a legit physical reason why I can't be on a trail it should be fair game! If there are two rocks that are too narrow on the trail and I can't go through without causing damage, then it should be signed.

My problem is that 90% of the jeepers I have encountered feel like we should not be allowed on trails in SxS's. It gets old, and I get REAL tired of the seperation in the off road community. We all know there are bad apples in every group but what is it going to take to get on the same page?

 

[offroader]

Sounds like your taking the apology back? Or it was back handed in the first place! You will never have freedom loving people kneel to blind allegiance to a failed system! Don't forget to boil your dust rag, it is a felony in Kalifornia not to, or is that a Law you chose not to follow? Baahh, Baahh, just like sheep! You do give me insight into how we ended up with Obama! And Brown! Say hey to Barbra! Please don't call yourself an Offroader, you don't get what it means to be one or a man!

And you have given insight in to why our trails are continually being closed. Not because of what you choose to ride but because of your negative attitude. Does it get you anywhere?

I can assure all of you that no one is bashing sxs and this has nothing to do with the vehicle. Hopefully the intelligent can see the difference.

Happy offroading.

 

[Doug Guimond]

First off, I don't think of ANYONE on here as a speaker for ALL of us on this forum. Clear as mud?

I do not agree with any fellow offroader calling and turning anyone in if they are out recreating and doing it responsibly. I have done the jeep thing, I have had atv's, toyotas, dirt bikes and utv's. I know that utv's are a gray area for many trails, mine is wider than 60". That means I am limited to where I can ride. I also feel that the F.S. has unfairly "ruled" my machine off of thousands of miles of trails with the 50" rule. They are public lands, and if there is not a legit physical reason why I can't be on a trail it should be fair game! If there are two rocks that are too narrow on the trail and I can't go through without causing damage, then it should be signed.

My problem is that 90% of the jeepers I have encountered feel like we should not be allowed on trails in SxS's. It gets old, and I get REAL tired of the seperation in the off road community. We all know there are bad apples in every group but what is it going to take to get on the same page?

I currently own a Jeep and 2 ATVs. I have owned motorcycles, dune buggies, offroad golf carts, etc. There is zero segregation with me for other offroaders due to vehicles.

I would love to see more trails out there for everyone and I am against all permanent closures of our trails.

I cannot ever condone the "It's public land and I'm going to go wherever I want" attitude. Nothing positive can ever come from that attitude. I have gotten to know the land managers of the SBNF over the last 10 years and believe it or not many of them are working hard to preserve OHV recreation on the SBNF. Just last month we (the land managers and volunteers) opened a new OHV trail in Big Bear.

I challenge everyone on this forum to get the facts directly from the source. Get involved with keeping our trails open for our future generations.

 

[onerich]

This was on another thread if any one needs this info .
come to the next Adopt-A-Trail meeting at the Sizzler in Corona this Wednesday at 6PM.
1461 Rimpau Ave, Corona, CA 92879 » Map
(951) 272-8255
Kurt Kauffman
SBNF AAT volunteer

 

[66cummins]

I currently own a Jeep and 2 ATVs. I have owned motorcycles, dune buggies, offroad golf carts, etc. There is zero segregation with me for other offroaders due to vehicles.

I would love to see more trails out there for everyone and I am against all permanent closures of our trails.

I cannot ever condone the "It's public land and I'm going to go wherever I want" attitude. Nothing positive can ever come from that attitude. I have gotten to know the land managers of the SBNF over the last 10 years and believe it or not many of them are working hard to preserve OHV recreation on the SBNF. Just last month we (the land managers and volunteers) opened a new OHV trail in Big Bear.

I challenge everyone on this forum to get the facts directly from the source. Get involved with keeping our trails open for our future generations.

I didn't say it's public land and I'm going to go wherever I want. If there is a road, logging road, or trail that was built for OHV use then they should ALL be fair game. The problem is that where the "facts" come from, is loaded very heavily with anti OHV people. With junk science behind the reasons why they do something.

 

[ROTAX]

Apparently, some think "Adopt a Trail" means to them "Own a Trail"?? Sorry, but anyone who flag-waves their 7000 hours to maintain a trail, is not doing it for their personal gratification, but to validate their existence and false partnership with the FS. Anyone involved in Adopt a Trail should be thankful and welcoming to the rest of us for taking advantage of their hard work by using the trail?? Right?These trails are OURS to enjoy, and my SXS should be praised by the Sierra Club and Greenies, due to it's lower impact on the environment. There should not have been frowns and nasty comments on Saturday,......where's the respect??? Finally, UTV's are not identified as really anything right now on the forestry signs. So, at your meeting with the FS, how about putting the good word in for us fellow Americans, to ease up on the limited access on "OUR" trails!!

 

[Trail cop]

Not that we already don't fight for or rights, again it would be nice NOT to be miss quoted, but I am looking for a LOGICAL REASON this TRAIL should be different from any of the others in the area? I am stumped that after 10 years you don't have an answer except "That's the Rule"! Make them tell you and report back, stop asking and start demanding just like the Sierra Club and the rest of the wackos! Still don't even know how I was in Violation? Except someone not paying attention!

OK, I was ready to walk away from this BS forum but finally I see a point that I can work with here. What exactly do you do to fight for OUR rights in the off road world? I have a list as long as my arm as do all of the AAT volunteers I work with. We have representatives in local government that listen to what we say. We are making a change, but it isn't easy, it takes alot of time to turn people's perceptions of the off road community around, and when we (offroaders) fight with each other it doesn't help. You rode your oh so capable junk on Holcomb trail because we didn't waste our time bickering and crying about our rights. We put the money down and got busy writing letters, going to local representatives offices, calling anyone we could find in the FS Bureaucratic cluster f__k that would listen to us, we took these guys out with us in our gas guzzling POSs on the trails and showed them why we want our land to recreate on. If we wouldn't have done that Holcomb, 2N06x and whole lot of other trails would still be behind locked gates. So please, don't spew that bullshit about us feeling entitled to have the trails to ourselves. We want everyone to be able to ride, just like it was in the old days, but the old ways of getting what we want don't work anymore, and the sooner you realize that the sooner we can start working together. We already work with CORVA (which I notice some of you sport stickers for on your rigs), BRC, CAL4Wheel, BLM, FS, SBNF, D37, SCORE, Save Johnson Valley and a host of others. So what ya got? Come put some of that passion you have for laying into my ass into something more productive.

 

[Trail cop]

Apparently, some think "Adopt a Trail" means to them "Own a Trail"?? Sorry, but anyone who flag-waves their 7000 hours to maintain a trail, is not doing it for their personal gratification, but to validate their existence and false partnership with the FS. Anyone involved in Adopt a Trail should be thankful and welcoming to the rest of us for taking advantage of their hard work by using the trail?? Right?These trails are OURS to enjoy, and my SXS should be praised by the Sierra Club and Greenies, due to it's lower impact on the environment. There should not have been frowns and nasty comments on Saturday,......where's the respect??? Finally, UTV's are not identified as really anything right now on the forestry signs. So, at your meeting with the FS, how about putting the good word in for us fellow Americans, to ease up on the limited access on "OUR" trails!!

Come put your own good word in. We mention the hours so you might take a minute and realize how hard we had to work to get a closed trail reopened. We don't do this for the praise, we do it because we love off roading and all that comes with it. Well, almost everything...

 

[brevndeb]

What I want to know is why the jeepers did not just wave and smile and think to them selfs that ,wow look at those fellow off roaders enjoying the great out doors with family and friends? I love all off roaders and hope that they are having as much fun as I and is exploring the great out doors. So what I am saying is can we just unite and tell the left wing wackos and green peace dildos to eat it! keep Off roading my friends!

 

[Slacker]

I was there when this all took place. We're new to the scene here in California, by no means new to the off road good time however, so I realize that my input carries little water here. I think the problem here is that you have a group of people excluded from a trail for which they pay. In fact that trail is very exclusive. On the surface it appears to be an intentional effort by one group to exclude all others. I could be 180 off on my observation but that is how it appears. Should Jeeps and other full sized rigs be excluded to the degree that they are from other trails? Absolutely not, a trail in the forest should be open to that which is capable as deemed by it's owner. There are guys that could take our ride places I can't, it would be in my judgement not to do it, but not my place to tell the next guy not too. I'm in the boat with the guys that say we need to be working together to benefit everyone, which seems to be the common theme here. California is definitely a different environment for this community. I for one am in for helping to maintain and expand every wheelers opportunities. I don't know what good the bickering at the trail did anyone or what it'll do here, lets let our level heads prevail here.

 

[ROTAX]

Ok, I'm calming down now.....I just had to kick the dog a couple times and do some yoga breathing. Dirk, I would like to educate myself a little here. Why would the FS mandate your club to randomly limit some trails that are obviously big enough for quads, UTV's etc.? I understand the gate for single track, but what gives?? I ride in Frazier and Gorman a lot, and the four wheel clubs up here are pretty welcoming without putting exclusions on their road signs??? Is it just "one" knucklehead sitting at a desk, with nothing better to do than think of ways to Ef with my mind??
BTW, did you at least like the video of our ride on the Miller thread?

 

[onerich]

Ok, I'm calming down now.....I just had to kick the dog a couple times and do some yoga breathing. Dirk, I would like to educate myself a little here. Why would the FS mandate your club to randomly limit some trails that are obviously big enough for quads, UTV's etc.? I understand the gate for single track, but what gives?? I ride in Frazier and Gorman a lot, and the four wheel clubs up here are pretty welcoming without putting exclusions on their road signs??? Is it just "one" knucklehead sitting at a desk, with nothing better to do than think of ways to Ef with my mind??
BTW, did you at least like the video of our ride on the Miller thread?

Dave check out this link doesn't give you a answer but it does give some info on the trail .
http://sbnf-adopt-a-trail.com/SBNF-AAT-TrailTimesno1.pdf