Cost of Winning: The Monster Mav Chronicles
- Thread starter badassmav
- Start date
badassmav
Well-Known Member
And here I thought I was going to share something new...
HEY! So, are you in for Baja or what? Trust me, it's a lot funner when you win! Man, I am not looking forward to 5 days in Mexico, but it will all pay off in the end. I just need somebody to drive me back and keep me out of trouble! Can-am is nipping at Marc to keep us on board next year. I've had 2 looooong hard years w/The Monster Mav. That booger on wheels has taken a chunk of my life and twisted me in half. No way will Baja be anything but glorious.
HEY! So, are you in for Baja or what? Trust me, it's a lot funner when you win! Man, I am not looking forward to 5 days in Mexico, but it will all pay off in the end. I just need somebody to drive me back and keep me out of trouble! Can-am is nipping at Marc to keep us on board next year. I've had 2 looooong hard years w/The Monster Mav. That booger on wheels has taken a chunk of my life and twisted me in half. No way will Baja be anything but glorious.
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Well, It looks like I've strayed off path here as far as being judgmental goes. I try to keep this thread factual, educational, and enlightening, and in no way do I wish it to be used as a tool to pass judgment on any one person or company. The politics behind who gets what belt is not what I started this thread for. It borderlines on bashing, and is speculative at best. The facts however, regarding mechanical data, reliability, and availability of an item to the general public is the essence of this thread.
With that being said, drive belts and the durability of them is one of the largest issues facing those who race UTV's, and therefore a great subject matter for the Chronicles. Regardless of what any engineer or company rep tries to tell me, I can only trust what is factually accurate. Anyone can manipulate a dial caliper or other types of linear measuring devices to favor one direction or the other, in order to justify a point. Other than publicity and the sharing of technology, there is no agenda here (other than being relevant), so when I report to you that there is a dimensional difference in drive belts bearing different part numbers, it is based on data gathered as accurately as possible. I do not profit from the sales of one belt over another. It is the durability said item that lines my proverbial pockets. "Scoreboard baby!", as they say.
The -364 belts that I measured are 4.7% to 5.3% thicker in cross section than the -212 belts, and weighed 6.7% more. Unless they are constructed using inferior types or amounts of any given material, I will be ordering the 280-364 belts over the 715900212 from now on. They are the belts that the factory uses in the assembly of your new Maverick, and that speaks volumes to me. I know of no manufacturer that would offer a product using lesser quality parts, when a higher quality part is available. There is unfortunately not enough time left for us this season to test that theory before the 1000, but my time spent on the subject is suffice for me to go with the -364's.
With that being said, drive belts and the durability of them is one of the largest issues facing those who race UTV's, and therefore a great subject matter for the Chronicles. Regardless of what any engineer or company rep tries to tell me, I can only trust what is factually accurate. Anyone can manipulate a dial caliper or other types of linear measuring devices to favor one direction or the other, in order to justify a point. Other than publicity and the sharing of technology, there is no agenda here (other than being relevant), so when I report to you that there is a dimensional difference in drive belts bearing different part numbers, it is based on data gathered as accurately as possible. I do not profit from the sales of one belt over another. It is the durability said item that lines my proverbial pockets. "Scoreboard baby!", as they say.
The -364 belts that I measured are 4.7% to 5.3% thicker in cross section than the -212 belts, and weighed 6.7% more. Unless they are constructed using inferior types or amounts of any given material, I will be ordering the 280-364 belts over the 715900212 from now on. They are the belts that the factory uses in the assembly of your new Maverick, and that speaks volumes to me. I know of no manufacturer that would offer a product using lesser quality parts, when a higher quality part is available. There is unfortunately not enough time left for us this season to test that theory before the 1000, but my time spent on the subject is suffice for me to go with the -364's.
badassmav
Well-Known Member
If you have noticed since after the V2R race this thread has slowed a bit, it is not your imagination. It is unfortunate that my digital camera grew some legs at the V2R race. As a result, there will not be a lot of images available to share until I can replace it. The saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words", is pretty accurate as I am discovering. Since I don't have the time to type a thousand words every time I post (well, maybe 900!), and I am buried working on 3 separate large projects as well, this thread may appear to stagnate for a short while. I'll keep you filled in on the path we travel in finishing out this, our 2nd season in racing the 1900 pro sportsman UTV class. While the hours have been difficult, the results are indicative of them. With two races left this season (and in our contract), we are in position to win the points title. The desert challenge will be interesting, since it will expose our ability to adjust to the most extreme set of circumstances to date. I would be happy just limping away with 100% of the starting and finishing points available for said race. Then, it's off to the 1000 where I claim, as you all know, is the place where my dogs crap! Either way, it is looking good for Can-am to get their first SCORE championship, unless the Murray's and us "crap" out!
Blue Coyote
Member
Aside from the 5% difference in thickness and weight, is there any difference in the actual material? Durometer? Anyone ever cut both open to count cords, or look for other visual clues?
From past experiance with TKs and Oddys, its heat that kills any belt. Its generally not the cords that fail, but excessive heat causes the rubber to reach a critical temp leading to failure. From my conversations with Josh at Cryoheat, there may be some benefit in treating the components - both hard and soft.
Beyond that what can be done to reduce the creation of heat, along with the build up and / or removal of heat from the clutch system?
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
From past experiance with TKs and Oddys, its heat that kills any belt. Its generally not the cords that fail, but excessive heat causes the rubber to reach a critical temp leading to failure. From my conversations with Josh at Cryoheat, there may be some benefit in treating the components - both hard and soft.
Beyond that what can be done to reduce the creation of heat, along with the build up and / or removal of heat from the clutch system?
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Aside from cross section and weight, I found nothing more to support the argument that the -364 belts are superior to the -212's EXCEPT for the fact that they are what the manufacturer prefers to sell their UTE's with. The color of the belts seemed a bit different, but then again, the colors vary on belts sharing the same part number also. The inside of the -364 belt looked a little bit coarser, but again, I've seen that variation within the same part numbered belt as well.
I will say, that the extra thickness appears to be added to the outer laminate of the belt. That which lies beyond the outer bond of the belt (assuming there is a bond. BRP is pretty tight lipped about the composition, and mfg. methods of their belts). It looks as though the belts are 2 separate components that are bonded together at the outer line you see on the sides of the belt.
We haven't had a chance to compare the two belts in a real world environment (IMO, racing is the ONLY real world environment. I have yet to be successful simulating racing conditions while testing.), nor will I be able to obtain real data on that matter until after the 1000, at which point, our commitment to racing UTV's has been fulfilled. I will be doing some clutch tuning in 3 weeks or so on a stock Maverick, but not on the 2,300 lb. Monster Mav, which is where the data captured is most valuable. Due to other projects, I won't have that car race ready for at least 6 weeks.
Blue Coyote
Member
Reid,
While no where near the build of Monster Mav, our Stock / Production 1000 has been bulletproof - almost - in stock form.
A few upgrades / tricks:
>TwinAir filter with Lucas RednTacky along the edges.
>CT Racing front & rear bolt on chassis brace along with front & rear tierods.
>CT Racing tuned shocks w/dual rate.
> upgrade rear shock bolts to .500 grade 8
>Gorilla outer rear CV's with BAM hub prep & blue loctite.
Good luck at the SCORE Desert Challange in the stock Mav.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
While no where near the build of Monster Mav, our Stock / Production 1000 has been bulletproof - almost - in stock form.
A few upgrades / tricks:
>TwinAir filter with Lucas RednTacky along the edges.
>CT Racing front & rear bolt on chassis brace along with front & rear tierods.
>CT Racing tuned shocks w/dual rate.
> upgrade rear shock bolts to .500 grade 8
>Gorilla outer rear CV's with BAM hub prep & blue loctite.
Good luck at the SCORE Desert Challange in the stock Mav.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
megadesertdiesel
Well-Known Member
a little more info please. part numbers for gorillas, axle nut torque, BAM hub prep?
i am getting ready to go through my axles and might as well upgrade them when i have them apart.
badassmav
Well-Known Member
I read in one of the forums that the torque spec for the Gorilla rear stub axles was a low 60 ft/lbs. or so. Is that accurate? Also, is the fit between the splines on the Gorilla stubbs a tighter tolerance than the factory fit? I know that the "BAM" fix (actually, it is a recommendation from BRP's racing department)is required when running the stock set up because the splined interface is sloppy, and the wheel hub/rotor would "rock" on the stub axle shaft, causing the pre mature failure of the stub axle. Wiley posted some great pics showing the comparison of the oem and Gorilla replacement stubbs on the first page of this thread.
The recommendation from BRP in regards to the assembly of the outer drive portion of the Maverick axles are as follows:
On the hub nut, increase the torque setting to 200 ft lbs., and use red loctite on the splines. Also, discard the stock washer and 26mm hub nut, and replace it with the larger 32mm castellated nut and washer. Let me share with you now my interpretation of their recommendation. It is what I have been doing. Religiously, since we started racing a Maverick last season. We had more than 1,200 hard miles on one of the assemblies, without failure, so I know the process is effective for the desert racing community.
First, I always replace the wheel bearings after 500 miles of use. Period. Racing, testing, or otherwise. The rear aluminum bearing carriers/uprights/hubs/spindles, whatever you choose to refer to them as, are durable enough for only 3 bearing replacements. After that, for some reason, the fit of the bearing into the machined interface becomes too sloppy, and the bearing exerts too much axial load on the circlips, causing them to pop out (see attached image). This has happened to us twice before I ascertained a service life for the aluminum uprights.
Prior to assembling the rotors onto the stub axle, be sure that the splines on both components are 100% free of any grease, oils, or grit. Then, one rotor at a time, liberally apply 271 loctite to the splines so they are 100% filled with the magical red goo. I face the back of the rotor up, so the loctite runs down towards the outside of the rotor. That way, the excess loctite is away from the bearing when sliding the rotor onto the stub axle. If the loctite is not oozing out from every spline after you slid the rotor over the stub axle, you didn't use enough loctite. Wipe off the excessive loctite from the face of the rotor where the washer rests.
The following 2 steps are crucial in my mind, but not identified in the BRP bulletin. When installing the flat washer, notice that the washer is conical. install the washer so that it is con-vexed, as you view it from the outside of the stub axle. This orientation will afford the washer to apply more leverage onto the face of the rotor, since it is the outer edge of the washer contacting the rotor face, instead of the center of the washer, which is more likely to allow the rotor to "rock" upon the contact point. After all, it is the "rocking" of the rotor on the splines that we are combating here.
Next, thread on the hub nut to at least 75 ft/lbs, (I just use a battery powered impact driver, which is around 120 ft/lbs.) and install the wheel/tire. Tighten the lug nuts, then either have someone hold the brake pedal down, or drop the car onto the ground and torque the nut to 175 ft./lbs. Check the clearance for a cotter pin between the castellated nut and the hole in the stub axle. If not yet aligned, usually the last 25 ft./lbs. of torque is adequate to align the cotter key hole. I add this step because I am concerned that the increased torque spec the MFG. recommends is at the limit of yielding the stub axle, and to tighten the nut past 200 is asking for trouble. For all I know, the additional tension on the threaded portion of the stub axle can be catastrophic when you hit a hard G out.
Now, you will need a puller to remove the rotor, since you just "welded" it on with a liberal dose of Loctite 271. I made this stout puller out of 1/2" thick mild steel (see image), and is part of the on board tool kit. It has countersunk holes that match the angles on the lug nuts, and I used an old hub nut as the center screw, since you already will have the socket out to remove the rotor. I also use 2 of the lug nuts that I removed when taking the wheel off to hold the puller against the rotor. You can see in the picture, the increased size of the castellated hub nut.
An important note:
Be sure to immediately drop the car and final torque the hub nuts once the loctite is applied. Do not get lazy and install all 4 hub nuts with loctite first, then go back and torque them all at the same time. Since loctite cures in the absence of air, it is only minutes until it becomes a friction modifier, and decreases the clamping force on the rotor because it will absorb a good amount of the torque applied to the nut. Also, be sure to use a quality cotter pin of the right diameter. Do not use one of those cheap shiny ones that come in the 5 dollar variety pack from Auto zone. If you do, better loctite the hub nut as well.
I still do not know why the GNCC type of racing is shearing the stub axles, and the desert racers are not (although, I did give Cory S. a rear stubby at the V2R race). I do know however, that the Monster Mav weighs in excess of 2,350 pounds, and is driven harder than any other car in our class. Using the assembly method I just outlined, we have yet to see a failure outboard of the wheel bearings, with the exception of losing a circlip. Twice. Good luck, and pass on the info. It has proven to be an effective fix for our car, and certainly will be for your desert car as well.
Reid, I race GORS and what I have noticed is when you slide Into a rut or any sudden side load (while under throttle) causes the threaded portion of the stub to snap off. I did not wait for this to happen, I have seen a few break and decided to buy some reliability. I still use loctite on the splines of the stubs and I torque the nut to 175ft lbs however gorilla told me 60ft lbs is all you need. The tech told me that loctite on the splines was overkill, I continue to do it because to me it's cheap insurance and it takes me a few minutes to do during the spend/prep phase of racing. I put my car up in jack stands and break it down after ever race, I check all the major components. So far the steering rack is the only part that has let me down while racing, I have not DNF' any race I have started. Hopefully my 10 cents helps some guys out lol
Pat
Pat
Blue Coyote
Member
My rear install is the same as Patt107 - Gorilla tech Dave told me 65 ft lbs only and loctite not needed - but the loctite will form a bond and fill the voids of the less than machine fit tolerences so we use it. The Gorilla fit is slightly tighter.
Before the Gorillas we installed NEW axles and NEW hubs with loctite, 175#, new cotter pin, etc - made it one lap on the COORP -1.2 miles and in turn 1 broke the end off - again.
Now with the Gorillas I will hammer that rear end in the corner berms and its fine - torque has not loosened, staked nut (not cotter pinned) has not moved. RCV makes Gorillas - and I remember them from years ago and the Toyota Birfields / Bobby Long Longfield. Saw him at SEMA one year with the CV breaker - and there stuff was many times stronger that any Ujoint at the time . Meaning they know their stuff.
How you get Monster Mav to survive on stock outer CV's is amazing
Our only DNF's were causes be broken rear CV snouts and idiot drivers.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
Before the Gorillas we installed NEW axles and NEW hubs with loctite, 175#, new cotter pin, etc - made it one lap on the COORP -1.2 miles and in turn 1 broke the end off - again.
Now with the Gorillas I will hammer that rear end in the corner berms and its fine - torque has not loosened, staked nut (not cotter pinned) has not moved. RCV makes Gorillas - and I remember them from years ago and the Toyota Birfields / Bobby Long Longfield. Saw him at SEMA one year with the CV breaker - and there stuff was many times stronger that any Ujoint at the time . Meaning they know their stuff.
How you get Monster Mav to survive on stock outer CV's is amazing
Our only DNF's were causes be broken rear CV snouts and idiot drivers.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Yeah, Alex and I are at an impass as to why you guys break 'em and we dont. I can not picture your type of racing applying more lateral loading to the stub axles than a 2,350 pound car at 65 miles an hour, being suddenly thrown into a full lock turn on terrain that is usually full of ruts 2 feet deep from the TT's, and is abundant with rocks that can break a bead at any turn.
The only other factor that I have not considered in the equation is heat. Because of the extreme and compound operating angles on your cv joints, they have to be generating way more heat than ours. I remember at last years Ridgecrest race (250 miles, I think), when I was "gathering" information to start my build, that the rear cv joints on two of the cars after the finish of the race, were no less than 240 degrees. Next to power loss, heat caused by friction was the biggest factor in my spending the time to re locate both front and rear differentials. Although, I don't think that 240 degrees is hot enough to weaken the lattice and grain structure of medium carbon alloy steels that your cv joints are made from, I was not positive of that fact. So, I went with my normal approach to designing things: Overkill is the key to success when racing in the lower ranks. I tend to over build things, hence the 400 pounds of extra weight over our competition that we lug around on every race course.
How says you, Alex? Have you any new thoughts as to why you guys are so hard on cv joints? If it is only on the Mavericks, and only the rears that fail, then the compound angles surely play a role.
Blue Coyote
Member
Doubt its heat - not in 1.2 miles. Have not seen any inner CV area failure - just that snout that is about as far away from the CV bell. . IMHO its a design "opportunity".
The Gorillas are working for us.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
The Gorillas are working for us.
NorthWestOffroad.net
Racing- Adventure - Fun
Maverick XRS
Being that I've done V2R twice now along with almost everything the east coast has to offer I'm still a believer that everything on the east coast is way harder on the vehicle on a regular basis than the stuff I experienced out there. Guys are breaking them in works too.
My belief is that the hubs are pivoting on the stock shafts and with leverage are breaking the threaded area off. Poor material from Can Am and an undersized thread and washer setup isn't giving it enough clamping area. The factory threaded area is stretching as well we're the Gorilla is not. We would have to tighten ours two or three times before it snapped off.
I'd like to think this will all be addressed on the new model but I doubt that will happen since the changes to it are minor.
My belief is that the hubs are pivoting on the stock shafts and with leverage are breaking the threaded area off. Poor material from Can Am and an undersized thread and washer setup isn't giving it enough clamping area. The factory threaded area is stretching as well we're the Gorilla is not. We would have to tighten ours two or three times before it snapped off.
I'd like to think this will all be addressed on the new model but I doubt that will happen since the changes to it are minor.
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Well, as I predicted back in June here on the Underground, the new Mavericks would be injecting some gooey green Monster Mav technology into their new line up. I'll just copy an excerpt from my June posting here:
"I heard that for the 2015 model year, Can-am will be taking a page from the Monster Mav's playbook and aligning the rear CV joints (If that happens, you all will never hear the end of it from this member
!) That's a serious change! I spoke in depth with the Can-am guys at this years Mint regarding CV joint alignment, and the kinematics of work being transmitted through an angle. Torsional forces, like linear and angular forces, are always vulnerable when asked to change the direction, or method in which they originated"
I informed you all that it was coming. I warned you all to prepare for my boasting (because you all know that mine is the biggest mouth in the Underground!). I shared with Can-am's top guys at this years Mint, just like I openly share with you all here, the hows and whys of the design process behind the Monster Mav. I do it for the betterment of the sport (and my self esteem). To help people (or companies, in this case) to achieve better results, without having to spend a lot of money.
Moving the rear differential back as to align the constant velocity joints is the first thing (next to the front steer design) that I saw flawed when creating the Monster Mav last year. Alex from Carolina Truggies argued with me the merits of this improvement in two different forums until he came around. Can-am looked at me like I was speaking Swahili when I explained it to them at the Mint, offering little to no advice to me, but instead taking mental notes on my "manifesto" on race car design. They both have since seen the light, as offered up to them by me, Captain Obvious, and are also re-locating the rear diff. Even UTVUG member and my pal Mearsman, is diving in with a bit of help from the "Cap" along the way. Re-locating the rear diff is (was) just one of many mods needed to maximize the performance of the OEM Maverick.
Incorporating someone elses design into your own product is not stealing, it's just smart engineering. Everything I do. Every thought I have about designing or building anything mechanical stems from things I have seen or read about in the past, or just mathematical and fundamental facts. As a young eager fabricator, I was in awe by a fellow named Joe Goulart from J&J Sand Cars. He built aluminim "dune buggies" back in the early 80's, and I performed some TIG welding duties on some of his chassis'. When I praised him for the awesome cars he built, he would take a sip of his Miller Lite beer and say, "It ain't nothing that hasn't been done before".
I am happy to have encouraged entities larger than myself to build things the right, or should I say, the more efficient way. But what a curious choice of colors for the new 121 horsepower Maverick, wouldn't you say? If they want a bigger piece of the UTV market share, they should have shared the wealth with Monster, and plastered the sides of their new release with a big green "M"! Sales would go through the roof. It's all about branding, hence the popularity that we've enjoyed over the last 2 seasons.
They (Can-am) have been telling us of a new clutch that will be available soon, and it looks like the primary on this new Maverick shares a lot with the STM style primaries. Judging by the increased ducting for the CVT enclosure, I'd say they must have contacted Captain Obvious! How easy was that? If someone would only spend time to design a 12 volt duct fan that performs in the 300-400 CFM range, AND can handle temperatures in the 300 degrees range, they'd be killing it. Even a 24 volt blower if necessary. I'm sure there is a way to wire a 24 volt blower up to our dual battery set up.
So, kudos to Can-am, and their desire to adjust to the marketplace of manufacturing performance UTV's. It will benefit all who purchase said product, and I'm proud to say that I played a role in that (UN-compensated of course, because evidently, I just can't stand prosperity!) Knowing the "Polaris Schlomaris" camp, they'll have an answer soon to Can-am's upgrades. Watch out, because they listen, and respond like no other UTV manufacturer out there. I'd love to get my hands on a XP1K, and inject it with some green goo!
"I heard that for the 2015 model year, Can-am will be taking a page from the Monster Mav's playbook and aligning the rear CV joints (If that happens, you all will never hear the end of it from this member
I informed you all that it was coming. I warned you all to prepare for my boasting (because you all know that mine is the biggest mouth in the Underground!). I shared with Can-am's top guys at this years Mint, just like I openly share with you all here, the hows and whys of the design process behind the Monster Mav. I do it for the betterment of the sport (and my self esteem). To help people (or companies, in this case) to achieve better results, without having to spend a lot of money.
Moving the rear differential back as to align the constant velocity joints is the first thing (next to the front steer design) that I saw flawed when creating the Monster Mav last year. Alex from Carolina Truggies argued with me the merits of this improvement in two different forums until he came around. Can-am looked at me like I was speaking Swahili when I explained it to them at the Mint, offering little to no advice to me, but instead taking mental notes on my "manifesto" on race car design. They both have since seen the light, as offered up to them by me, Captain Obvious, and are also re-locating the rear diff. Even UTVUG member and my pal Mearsman, is diving in with a bit of help from the "Cap" along the way. Re-locating the rear diff is (was) just one of many mods needed to maximize the performance of the OEM Maverick.
Incorporating someone elses design into your own product is not stealing, it's just smart engineering. Everything I do. Every thought I have about designing or building anything mechanical stems from things I have seen or read about in the past, or just mathematical and fundamental facts. As a young eager fabricator, I was in awe by a fellow named Joe Goulart from J&J Sand Cars. He built aluminim "dune buggies" back in the early 80's, and I performed some TIG welding duties on some of his chassis'. When I praised him for the awesome cars he built, he would take a sip of his Miller Lite beer and say, "It ain't nothing that hasn't been done before".
I am happy to have encouraged entities larger than myself to build things the right, or should I say, the more efficient way. But what a curious choice of colors for the new 121 horsepower Maverick, wouldn't you say? If they want a bigger piece of the UTV market share, they should have shared the wealth with Monster, and plastered the sides of their new release with a big green "M"! Sales would go through the roof. It's all about branding, hence the popularity that we've enjoyed over the last 2 seasons.
They (Can-am) have been telling us of a new clutch that will be available soon, and it looks like the primary on this new Maverick shares a lot with the STM style primaries. Judging by the increased ducting for the CVT enclosure, I'd say they must have contacted Captain Obvious! How easy was that? If someone would only spend time to design a 12 volt duct fan that performs in the 300-400 CFM range, AND can handle temperatures in the 300 degrees range, they'd be killing it. Even a 24 volt blower if necessary. I'm sure there is a way to wire a 24 volt blower up to our dual battery set up.
So, kudos to Can-am, and their desire to adjust to the marketplace of manufacturing performance UTV's. It will benefit all who purchase said product, and I'm proud to say that I played a role in that (UN-compensated of course, because evidently, I just can't stand prosperity!) Knowing the "Polaris Schlomaris" camp, they'll have an answer soon to Can-am's upgrades. Watch out, because they listen, and respond like no other UTV manufacturer out there. I'd love to get my hands on a XP1K, and inject it with some green goo!
Attachments
Ignore Amos
Active Member
Reed, We too are a factory Can Am team.. sometimes I think you drink too much of your green goo.. you were not the first Can Am to have a front steer... you were not the first team to have pushed back the diff to realign the rear CV's (we did this back in early 2012 on our BITD Commander along with pushed back rear suspension) or putting blowers on the CVT's. You're still relatively new to the BITD scene- I appreciate you openness and willingness to share what you do, but just because it isn't posted here at the UTVUG... doesn't mean it hasn't happen elsewhere.. whether it be the Murray's, Cory or ourselves.. we all have been modifying and pushing the the Can Ams to new levels for years. BTW, our conversations with BRP engineers are not just at the races... I know the previously mentioned teams and us have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours collectively working with the BRP engineers sharing our experience on how to improve the BRP products.
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