Cost of Winning: The Monster Mav Chronicles

[badassmav]

So, now that I've got your attention with our badass light bar, let me fill you in on what is not so cool about it.

Let me first preface this by saying that until you have ridden in a car that has a roof mounted adjustable light bar, you have no idea what you are missing! You always have a sufficient amount of light, and it's always pointed at the right place. No more compromising when aiming your lights! Between the Hella's up top, the Hella's on the bumper, and the HID's in the stock location, it is virtually impossible to out drive the lights in the Monster Mav. It is yet another advantage we will enjoy at this years 1000.

There are 3 main disadvantages to all of the lights that we run. First is the obvious weight penalty. The adjustable light bar with the 5 lights, minus the adjusting handle, weighs in at 37 lbs. AND, it sits atop of the race car. The second downfall is the need to run an alternator, a second battery with a second regulator/isolator, a dual battery switch, all the heavy cabling to connect everything together, additional toggle switches, relays and circuit breakers plus more wiring again, well, you can get the picture now I'm sure!

Since the alternator runs off of the driveshaft, it causes the 3rd and most serious problem. Due to the alternator belt tension constantly tugging on the driveshaft, there are maintenance and reliability issues. The alternator belt tension is a sensitive adjustment. Too loose and the belt will slip the second you turn on the lights. Too tight (like I got it at the Baja 500) and the tension on the u-joints via the driveshaft mounted pulley will wear out the bore in the yoke that contains the u-joint caps. If anyone was at the finish line when we limped in at the baja 500, they undoubtedly heard the front driveshaft clanking around. This was due to the fact that we lost 2 of the 4 u-joint bearing caps that indexes the driveshaft within the yoke. They flew out somewhere around Ojos, 40 minutes before the end of the race. I have a solution to the belt tension problem, just no time to execute it prior to V2R.

Well, I hope this discussion was enlightening to you all regarding the consequences, and challenges that go along with adding powerhouse lighting to your race car. I'm going to bed now because I'm tired of typing with only one eye!!!

 

[warlock]

big ass lights for sure! adjustable lightbars are nice to have.

Yep sure is nice to see at night. I'm done with the whole Trendy led light bars or whatever you call them they suck. I tried it for 2 seasons and for our Fast night Dune rides and leading with them just sucks Ass. The lack of adjustability and being able to have the outside lights shooting up high for when I'm going down a Dune and looking up for my line just sucks with a light bar.
I'm making a old school rack of round lights . The followers and camp cruisers can have those sleek little light bars. He'll Kris and I were smoking thru the Dunes with stock lights and the guys with 5 zillion watts of led shit were barely able to hang and we were leading and they would not go Duning at night with us after that night. Bunch of PUSSIES. We felt like cave men with factory headlights, looked like we had a stick torch for lighting. Lmfao.

My last light bar rack also had a electric ram to adjust the angle of the lights via a switch on the console next to my hand so you could just hit it real quick and move lights up or down. And that was slick as hell. Not a race car but it had a spring loaded end and you could remove it pretty quick. And pull the pin for the actuator and power and off you go.

 

[JoeyD23]

Yep sure is nice to see at night. I'm done with the whole Trendy led light bars or whatever you call them they suck. I tried it for 2 seasons and for our Fast night Dune rides and leading with them just sucks Ass. The lack of adjustability and being able to have the outside lights shooting up high for when I'm going down a Dune and looking up for my line just sucks with a light bar.
I'm making a old school rack of round lights . The followers and camp cruisers can have those sleek little light bars. He'll Kris and I were smoking thru the Dunes with stock lights and the guys with 5 zillion watts of led shit were barely able to hang and we were leading and they would not go Duning at night with us after that night. Bunch of PUSSIES. We felt like cave men with factory headlights, looked like we had a stick torch for lighting. Lmfao.

My last light bar rack also had a electric ram to adjust the angle of the lights via a switch on the console next to my hand so you could just hit it real quick and move lights up or down. And that was slick as hell. Not a race car but it had a spring loaded end and you could remove it pretty quick. And pull the pin for the actuator and power and off you go.

You crack me up. I'll take my little wimpy sleek girly LED bar and run all night long in the dunes with you or whoever. Along with a couple a-pillar and or bumper lights. All without needing an extra battery or alternator. That's why we all went away from HID, wasn't cause LED was brighter, it was so we didn't need to do what Reid is having to do on the Monster Mav with an alternator and extra battery.

Maybe a bad comparison; the last UTV I had with HID was the FatRod. 5-Baja Designs 6" Pre-Runners. Awesome lights. Problem was I really could only run all 5 for like 10 minutes before voltage started dropping off. That was the end of my HID days. A 30" or 40" puts out as much if not more light due to spread then my 3 HIDs did and I can run them all night with my stereo!

 

[DBlank72]

So, now that I've got your attention with our badass light bar, let me fill you in on what is not so cool about it.

Let me first preface this by saying that until you have ridden in a car that has a roof mounted adjustable light bar, you have no idea what you are missing! You always have a sufficient amount of light, and it's always pointed at the right place. No more compromising when aiming your lights! Between the Hella's up top, the Hella's on the bumper, and the HID's in the stock location, it is virtually impossible to out drive the lights in the Monster Mav. It is yet another advantage we will enjoy at this years 1000.

There are 3 main disadvantages to all of the lights that we run. First is the obvious weight penalty. The adjustable light bar with the 5 lights, minus the adjusting handle, weighs in at 37 lbs. AND, it sits atop of the race car. The second downfall is the need to run an alternator, a second battery with a second regulator/isolator, a dual battery switch, all the heavy cabling to connect everything together, additional toggle switches, relays and circuit breakers plus more wiring again, well, you can get the picture now I'm sure!

Since the alternator runs off of the driveshaft, it causes the 3rd and most serious problem. Due to the alternator belt tension constantly tugging on the driveshaft, there are maintenance and reliability issues. The alternator belt tension is a sensitive adjustment. Too loose and the belt will slip the second you turn on the lights. Too tight (like I got it at the Baja 500) and the tension on the u-joints via the driveshaft mounted pulley will wear out the bore in the yoke that contains the u-joint caps. If anyone was at the finish line when we limped in at the baja 500, they undoubtedly heard the front driveshaft clanking around. This was due to the fact that we lost 2 of the 4 u-joint bearing caps that indexes the driveshaft within the yoke. They flew out somewhere around Ojos, 40 minutes before the end of the race. I have a solution to the belt tension problem, just no time to execute it prior to V2R.

Well, I hope this discussion was enlightening to you all regarding the consequences, and challenges that go along with adding powerhouse lighting to your race car. I'm going to bed now because I'm tired of typing with only one eye!!!

I am sure you have figured out a solution to the alternator running off the drive shaft issue but since my mind is working this morning; wouldn't a carrier bearing installed close to where the alternator pulley runs on the shaft solve this issue? This would compensate the opposing load on the shaft from the tension of the alternator. Wouldn't it also help to keep the shaft better line up on the diff, which intern should keep some of the wear and tear off of the U-Joints? Then if you did break a U-joint it wouldn't tear up as much stuff around the shaft because its held in place with the carrier bearing. Just a little food for thought, if this is a terrible idea let me know. Always looking to learn where I can and offer ideas. Good luck!

 

[badassmav]

The sharing of our light bar was not so much a boast as many of my posts are, but rather a lesson in discipline and diligence. The decision to light up the night was an easy one. It is my guess that a high percentage of desert racers out there wish they had more light to drive by. A fuller pattern of light that allows them them to exploit the mechanical abilities of their vehicle, and their ability to drive it. Now the execution of said task takes time and determination. Throwing together a tubing frame with a spring, a pin, 2k worth of lights, and some miscellaneous hardware is just the infancy of your successful lighting journey.

I know of a member or two who have taken a page from the Monster Mav's design book, and applied it to their vehicle(s) or products. Next to boasting, that is the biggest reason it is published. To help, and to share good sound advice. BE CAREFUL BEFORE JUMPING INTO THIS POOL! It will not be so easy to successfully get back out. The components are pricey to say the least, and unless you have the resources and tradesmen at your disposal as this project requires, I guarantee that it will hold you back more than it will propel you forward.

Unlike Joey's experience (not being able to run all of his lights for more than 10 minutes without losing voltage), our cars lighting has a 100% duty cycle without draining the system of the power needed to maintain the other systems on the car. It didn't happen the first race out, nor did it come cheaply. But, it has arrived for us after many hours of chasing the proverbial bugs out of the system. My brother gets the credit for that effort, for sure. I don't care what anyone tells you, their LED light bars pale in comparison to the far reaching capacity of HID technology, for now at least. Once science finds a way to more efficiently focus light produced from LED's in a forward direction, LED's will then be comparable to HID performance. Until such time, LED's are plays second fiddle to that of the HID technology.

I would hate to see any Glamis fans feel that they need "Badassmav" lighting performance for their weekend dune festivals, because they don't. Hands down, Glamis and LED technology are good bedfellows, make no mistake about it. But, if on a dark moonless night you are being chased down by blinding bright lights while racing in the Baja 1000, and you are driving as fast as your little LED's say you can go, be prepared to get owned by the power of HID technology in the hands of a worthy opponent!

Oh my! I've gone on another rant. Anyway, here's the jist of this post:

I am all about total disclosure. However, Marc is not. 2 taboo areas of the Monster Mav are lighting, and soon to be clutching. Out of respect for Marc and the effort we all put into our lighting set up, I can not disclose schematics or exact componentry that brought us success, so copy at your own peril!! Users beware!! Enter at your own risk, or any other cliche' you choose to attach!

 

[badassmav]

I am sure you have figured out a solution to the alternator running off the drive shaft issue but since my mind is working this morning; wouldn't a carrier bearing installed close to where the alternator pulley runs on the shaft solve this issue? This would compensate the opposing load on the shaft from the tension of the alternator. Wouldn't it also help to keep the shaft better line up on the diff, which intern should keep some of the wear and tear off of the U-Joints? Then if you did break a U-joint it wouldn't tear up as much stuff around the shaft because its held in place with the carrier bearing. Just a little food for thought, if this is a terrible idea let me know. Always looking to learn where I can and offer ideas. Good luck!

Hmmm, a carrier bearing? Lets look at that option. A carrier bearing is usually used to minimize harmonic vibrations and torsional stresses in a driveshaft, or get the driveshaft up higher out of harms way. The role of the carrier bearing would now change in my application.

Let's first look at the proximity of the alternator drive pulley as it relates to the yoke at the front differential. It's right there. A carrier bearing, along with the additional slip and u-joints, would help share the tension load that the alternator belt applies. But after the space for the aforementioned components is consumed, the distance between the pinion bearing and the alternator drive pulley would be less than the distance between the carrier bearing and the drive pulley. Since the carrier bearing doesn't cancel the load and only shares it, the bulk of the residual tension after installing the carrirer bearing still lies at the yoke, where it attaches to the pinion shaft.

The solution that I had in mind was to add an idler pulley 180 degrees opposite the driven (alternator) pulley. This fix would offset the lateral loading on the driveshaft, as opposed to sharing the load. I think it would be less overall weight added as well. I like the ease (on my behalf) of installing a carrier bearing, and outsourcing 2 new driveshafts to replace the old one. But one can't argue the fundamental and mechanical advantage of the removing, or actually re-distributing of a load over just sharing it with another weighty component. That being said, when time allows it I will add an idler pulley. I think the idler pulley edges out the carrier bearing here, but not by much. I do like however, the point you made about the benefits of a carrier bearing if a u-joint were to fail.

Thanks for your suggestion though. It offered a viable solution to our problem, and was very stimulating for me as well!. See people, that's what I'm talking about. Please comment and add your 2 cents. The process of learning is never ending for us all.

Yeah, I know. I think too much.

 

[crazywatson]

On doors we have a problem on certain applications of the shafts flexing and not keeping the chain tight. We use a speader bearing. It's just and adjustable bar with a bearing on each end that keeps the shafts spread apart. Seems like something like that might work for the alternator belt. One bearing on the drive shaft and one on the alternator shaft with a threaded link between them.

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[badassmav]

On doors we have a problem on certain applications of the shafts flexing and not keeping the chain tight. We use a speader bearing. It's just and adjustable bar with a bearing on each end that keeps the shafts spread apart. Seems like something like that might work for the alternator belt. One bearing on the drive shaft and one on the alternator shaft with a threaded link between them.

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What type of doors are you referring to? Let me take a stab at what you are describing:


So, to clarify, I would have a bearing of some type that slides over the driveshaft? Then, an encasement or outer race that the bearing rotates in. A threaded rod that attaches to the bearing "cup" or race. Then, from the center bolt on the alternator pulley, an "bearing-ed" extension of some sort that allows an attachment point for the threaded rod from the driveshaft bearing to attach to. Both ends being pre-loaded by the adjustable length of the threaded rod. If so, I like the idea that the threaded rod takes the tension on the driveshaft and independently isolates it. If the scenario I painted is correct, then it would only work if my driveshaft is perfectly concentric, which is not common in my experience.

 

[crazywatson]

What type of doors are you referring to? Let me take a stab at what you are describing:


So, to clarify, I would have a bearing of some type that slides over the driveshaft? Then, an encasement or outer race that the bearing rotates in. A threaded rod that attaches to the bearing "cup" or race. Then, from the center bolt on the alternator pulley, an "bearing-ed" extension of some sort that allows an attachment point for the threaded rod from the driveshaft bearing to attach to. Both ends being pre-loaded by the adjustable length of the threaded rod. If so, I like the idea that the threaded rod takes the tension on the driveshaft and independently isolates it. If the scenario I painted is correct, then it would only work if my driveshaft is perfectly concentric, which is not common in my experience.

Yes that is correct. We work on big comercial roll up doors. The bearing we use a cheap chineese crap. But they spin at a extremely low speed and work fine for doors. You would need something custom and high quality. If the driveshaft is not concentric though that could be a problem.

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[badassmav]

Yes that is correct. We work on big comercial roll up doors. The bearing we use a cheap chineese crap. But they spin at a extremely low speed and work fine for doors. You would need something custom and high quality. If the driveshaft is not concentric though that could be a problem.

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Of the 4 driveshafts that i had made over the last 18 months, none were true. I guess these guys think that's what weights are for. To compensate for poor fixturing. To apply your idea to an out of round driveshaft would most likely cause an odd timed, perpetual vibration. But I love the exercise! The concept is perfect, but unfortunately, the circumstances are not!

 

[megadesertdiesel]

Here is my adjustable second fiddle LED lightbar, bedfellow for my Glamis fan weekend festival riding at night. It works great for me.

 

[warlock]

You crack me up. I'll take my little wimpy sleek girly LED bar and run all night long in the dunes with you or whoever. Along with a couple a-pillar and or bumper lights. All without needing an extra battery or alternator. That's why we all went away from HID, wasn't cause LED was brighter, it was so we didn't need to do what Reid is having to do on the Monster Mav with an alternator and extra battery.

Maybe a bad comparison; the last UTV I had with HID was the FatRod. 5-Baja Designs 6" Pre-Runners. Awesome lights. Problem was I really could only run all 5 for like 10 minutes before voltage started dropping off. That was the end of my HID days. A 30" or 40" puts out as much if not more light due to spread then my 3 HIDs did and I can run them all night with my stereo!

Well Joey if you read what I was saying in my post , I was talking about needing good adjustable Hid lights for Leading fast dune rides not following on rides I don't even need lighys to be a follower. Lol. Our night rides are seriously fast and that's for the Top 5 guys and for it to be as fast in the lead you gotta pick good lines to keep a good pace. The last guys can keep up with there light bars lol. The Canam puts out 650 watts of power so barely enough left to power 4 35 hids. Barely enough. The power steering sucks up like 450 watts I think.

 

[JoeyD23]

Well Joey if you read what I was saying in my post , I was talking about needing good adjustable Hid lights for Leading fast dune rides not following on rides I don't even need lighys to be a follower. Lol. Our night rides are seriously fast and that's for the Top 5 guys and for it to be as fast in the lead you gotta pick good lines to keep a good pace. The last guys can keep up with there light bars lol. The Canam puts out 650 watts of power so barely enough left to power 4 35 hids. Barely enough. The power steering sucks up like 450 watts I think.

I know what you meant. I lead 9 times out of 10, 1. I hate following and 2. everyone we ride with always tells me to lead (sissys). I am used to it now and actually prefer it unless we are with Dave from Fullerton who rips or Tim Gantz who lives in the dunes, literally.

I lead many new years runs with StormTrooper at night and all I had were factory RZR headlights and 2 Rigid Dually's on the a-pillar. But that doesn't mean much. A guy who knows the dunes and can dune fast with or without any extra lights.

I just think your point of needing good adjustable lights and being a good / fast leader is flawed. Of course, everyone thinks they are hauling ass too. We have had a lot of guys jump in with us that were experienced duners and when we were done told us that was the gnarliest run they have ever done. Anyway, I am saying, a good duner with an LED bar will lead as fast of a run as a good duner with HIDs. LED bars are PLENTY bright for recreational and for racing. Its all in how you aim them and how you use them. If they are fast enough for BJ Baldwin and Bryce Menzies then they are bright enough for me.

 

[badassmav]

C'mon guys, this thread is not meant for the flexing of tetoster-onic muscles! I try to stay on path with this thread, and me of all people know how hard that is. I try not to enter into, or get drawn into disagreements here (I do enough of that elsewhere!). I'm not saying, nor did I intend to imply that LED lights suck. For our needs, they just don't fit the bill. I just wanted to educate people on the challenges of effectively incorporating HID and Xenon type technology into their cars.

My intentions here are to share the ups and downs of desert racing, and what it takes to maintain a winning car throughout the season. I also thought that in sharing the technology in our car, and how it does or doesn't work, and how it is applied, that fans and racers alike could benefit from it. Maybe save them some of their hard earned money, and give them more time to spend with their families. I understand that if one attacks, one must defend, but try to keep in mind that this thread is a balance for me and all of the crap I talk elsewhere in the forum. I would like to think it is a place for open discussions regarding race car design and technology. A place where an opinion is not a statement, and a fact is, well a given, based on science and physics.

We all have our own opinions, but sometimes science just crushes them. One can not argue against fundamental certainties such as how HID technology is currently more effective than LED technology in directing the light photons in a forward direction. To clarify where I stand, LED lighting is better suited for closer, wide field of view applications (Glamis), whereas HID technology makes it easier for more light to be focused in a forward direction (open desert racing), making them a better choice for high speed, open terrain. As far as leading a pack of drivers on a liesurely ride through the midnight dunes, well that would be a preference thing.

 

[tatum]

I agree that at high speeds (over 75 mph) the hid's work better but my old eyes prefer the spread out more daylight type of light of led's.

 

[warlock]

Here is my adjustable second fiddle LED lightbar, bedfellow for my Glamis fan weekend festival riding at night. It works great for me.

Hey Mike maybe your on to something here with the Led bar just keep going with them on to the sides and pointing up and that should light up everything until they come up with Half moon shaped bars or circle bars that shine where your wheels are pointing. AS YOU DRIVE LOL.

 

[warlock]

I know what you meant. I lead 9 times out of 10, 1. I hate following and 2. everyone we ride with always tells me to lead (sissys). I am used to it now and actually prefer it unless we are with Dave from Fullerton who rips or Tim Gantz who lives in the dunes, literally.

I lead many new years runs with StormTrooper at night and all I had were factory RZR headlights and 2 Rigid Dually's on the a-pillar. But that doesn't mean much. A guy who knows the dunes and can dune fast with or without any extra lights.

I just think your point of needing good adjustable lights and being a good / fast leader is flawed. Of course, everyone thinks they are hauling ass too. We have had a lot of guys jump in with us that were experienced duners and when we were done told us that was the gnarliest run they have ever done. Anyway, I am saying, a good duner with an LED bar will lead as fast of a run as a good duner with HIDs. LED bars are PLENTY bright for recreational and for racing. Its all in how you aim them and how you use them. If they are fast enough for BJ Baldwin and Bryce Menzies then they are bright enough for me.

Flawed thinking yep. my teachers in skoool thaught dat tame ting. Hmmm what did they know. I guess I was a Dummy according to dem. Im gonna have to go find them and compare check books to see how DUMB I WAS. LMFAO.
Yeah Ive heard that one before if there fast enough for so and so. Whatever. lol. I guess Im used to the old school super adjustable focus of lights and you grew up with led bars. led is a good filler. Look who won the Mint 400 Trick Truck , Sourapas and McMillin with KC daylighter round HIDs. Corona truck Beer Truck. (used to be My favorite Beer lol) Hmmm I still think I like the old Hids
Sorry Reid for muddying up your thrrreeaad. Im out of Place..

 

[crazywatson]

It looks like to me hid lights work better in dust. Led makes it a white out. I always thought that's why the Monster mav ran hid.

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[badassmav]

I agree that at high speeds (over 75 mph) the hid's work better but my old eyes prefer the spread out more daylight type of light of led's.

Based on your track record Hans, I'd say that the LED's are working just fine for you! It humbles me a bit to see that you are following my thread. Thanks for your support.

 

[badassmav]

It looks like to me hid lights work better in dust. Led makes it a white out. I always thought that's why the Monster mav ran hid.

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It is a matter of personal preference i suppose. I don't have much race experience, so I can only comment on the facts. I'm a math and science guy. When I look at things, I see numbers, angles, leverages etc. I need to be able to quantify things, or at least know that their value is quantifiable in order to make sense of them. This whole LED, HID, LSD and ROTC thing is not what I expected to stir up! I wanted to show people an adjustable light bar. How it is made, and the complications of running power hungry lights. I would feel bad if someone, inspired by what we are doing here, dove head first into trying to mimic our set up, and ended up biting off more than he/she can chew.

You are probably right about the whiteout effect that dust has on LED lighting. If you research the fundamentals of light emitting diodes, the whiteout effect makes total sense.