Always Watching
New Member
I wouldn't expect factory guys to jump on here and hand out cheat codes. Lol.
This is false. A little OEM clutch massaging will put a Turbo XP into the 83-84 range with 30s.
The Murray car will run 91+.
BITD adds new Pro Turbo Production UTV class
- Thread starter SimsMotorsports
- Start date
I wouldn't expect factory guys to jump on here and hand out cheat codes. Lol.
This is false. A little OEM clutch massaging will put a Turbo XP into the 83-84 range with 30s.
The Murray car will run 91+.
The fastest we've ever hit in a race is 88 on a long down hill at the SS300, but like I said before the belt temps immediately start climbing.
The speed limiter sensor is at the output of the transmission. The ecu reads that sensor and limits is translated speed with stock size tires to 76mph (not gps). So how would clutch massaging allow that speed sensor to change its signal to the ecu?
Now, if we could flash the ecu then I would agree with you.
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///Airdam Clutches
Active Member
always watching. how do you know OEM clutch massaging will get the XPTurbo in the mid 80s?
there isnt any massaging you can do other than overdrive the primary. there is a limiter in the primary in the XPTurbo. if you pull it out, the clutch will upshift farther BUT the primary coil spring almost instantly coil binds. the clutch is such a large diameter that there is very little overdrive in the clutch. if you measure the throw ratio of the older style clutch and compare it to this newer larger clutch you will see that the overdrive ratio is very very different. the new XPTurbo is clutch limited. the belt can only go so far in the primary and so low in the secondary. this throw ratio of the clutch is what limits the XPTurbo overall top speed. the clutch allows for about 66mph once the throw of the clutch is over. at 66-70mph you will start to see the RPM climb past the "shiftout" RPM and you hit the rev limiter around 76-78 usually. with a reflash and 500+RPM added to the rev limiter, you will net about 6mph bringing you into the low to mid 80s.
with the older XP900-1000 clutch setups, the overdrive ratio of the clutch allowed for around 1.8-2 mph for every 100RPM of reflash. so an additional 500RPM of higher rev limiter in a reflash will allow an XP1000 to not hit the rev limiter untill around 88mph. very few cars have the power to pull that kind of MPH because of wind resistance, but the overdrive ratio of the clutch allows you to get much more speed out of an older XP1000 than the newer XPturbo.
you can trick the ecu and reflash it all you want. the XPTurbo is limited in the throw ratio of the clutch. because of their size, and overdrive ratio, you just dont get a lot of top speed out of them, which is exactly how polaris intended it, how it was designed, and how it was built. there are quite a few on this board over the years that have mistaken the rev limiter for a speed limiter. when the clutch finishes its throw, and then you start to gain RPM you will hit the REV LIMITER before you hit a speed limiter. the XP1000 typically hits the REV LIMITER around 74-78mph depending on model. if you take the throw limiter out of the stock primary you can then get more overdrive out of the clutch and hit the 80mph SPEED LIMITER. this is on the XP1000.
this new turbo, as i have been testing, i dont think it has an actual speed limiter. Polaris knew that with these clutches and overdrive, you cant gain a lot of MPH so all i have found in my testing is the rev limiter. the clutch finishes its throw and the RPM increase untill you hit the REV limiter. the Soft rev limiter closes the throttlebodies to slow you down and keep you from hitting the hard rev limiter. which some/most will mistake for a speed limiter. thats just the throw of the clutch maxing out and you running up and hitting the rev limiter.
there isnt any massaging you can do other than overdrive the primary. there is a limiter in the primary in the XPTurbo. if you pull it out, the clutch will upshift farther BUT the primary coil spring almost instantly coil binds. the clutch is such a large diameter that there is very little overdrive in the clutch. if you measure the throw ratio of the older style clutch and compare it to this newer larger clutch you will see that the overdrive ratio is very very different. the new XPTurbo is clutch limited. the belt can only go so far in the primary and so low in the secondary. this throw ratio of the clutch is what limits the XPTurbo overall top speed. the clutch allows for about 66mph once the throw of the clutch is over. at 66-70mph you will start to see the RPM climb past the "shiftout" RPM and you hit the rev limiter around 76-78 usually. with a reflash and 500+RPM added to the rev limiter, you will net about 6mph bringing you into the low to mid 80s.
with the older XP900-1000 clutch setups, the overdrive ratio of the clutch allowed for around 1.8-2 mph for every 100RPM of reflash. so an additional 500RPM of higher rev limiter in a reflash will allow an XP1000 to not hit the rev limiter untill around 88mph. very few cars have the power to pull that kind of MPH because of wind resistance, but the overdrive ratio of the clutch allows you to get much more speed out of an older XP1000 than the newer XPturbo.
you can trick the ecu and reflash it all you want. the XPTurbo is limited in the throw ratio of the clutch. because of their size, and overdrive ratio, you just dont get a lot of top speed out of them, which is exactly how polaris intended it, how it was designed, and how it was built. there are quite a few on this board over the years that have mistaken the rev limiter for a speed limiter. when the clutch finishes its throw, and then you start to gain RPM you will hit the REV LIMITER before you hit a speed limiter. the XP1000 typically hits the REV LIMITER around 74-78mph depending on model. if you take the throw limiter out of the stock primary you can then get more overdrive out of the clutch and hit the 80mph SPEED LIMITER. this is on the XP1000.
this new turbo, as i have been testing, i dont think it has an actual speed limiter. Polaris knew that with these clutches and overdrive, you cant gain a lot of MPH so all i have found in my testing is the rev limiter. the clutch finishes its throw and the RPM increase untill you hit the REV limiter. the Soft rev limiter closes the throttlebodies to slow you down and keep you from hitting the hard rev limiter. which some/most will mistake for a speed limiter. thats just the throw of the clutch maxing out and you running up and hitting the rev limiter.
///Airdam Clutches
Active Member
the maverick turbos i have worked on at my shop, with reflash and proper tire size, are capable of 95mph.
i have heard of a reflashed maverick or two in BITD racing, but they havent finished a race yet this year. so i dont think they really have any advantage over anyone. but if a maverick was reflashed, and came by you in a lake bottom running 90mph then yes thats a clear advantage over what the polaris is currently capable of. but as shane said above, the center to center distance of the maverick clutches, the diameter, and the length and width of the belt does not allow you to run it hard for long. the overdrive ratio of the maverick clutch is FAR beyond the polaris clutch, meaning it has much much more overdrive, and with overdrive thru the clutch you create A LOT of heat fast. just because a maverick with its insane clutch overdrive and tall trans gear ratio is capable of 90+mph dont mean that it can run it long.
i have heard of a reflashed maverick or two in BITD racing, but they havent finished a race yet this year. so i dont think they really have any advantage over anyone. but if a maverick was reflashed, and came by you in a lake bottom running 90mph then yes thats a clear advantage over what the polaris is currently capable of. but as shane said above, the center to center distance of the maverick clutches, the diameter, and the length and width of the belt does not allow you to run it hard for long. the overdrive ratio of the maverick clutch is FAR beyond the polaris clutch, meaning it has much much more overdrive, and with overdrive thru the clutch you create A LOT of heat fast. just because a maverick with its insane clutch overdrive and tall trans gear ratio is capable of 90+mph dont mean that it can run it long.
Adam we've tested our Maverick at your shop and you know as well as I do we had a hard time hitting 85mph on flat ground. There just isn't enough hp to weight ratio for us.
Now Mr Mal on the other hand with his reflash can hit 90+, but the belt goes bye bye very quick. But this is all common knowledge to you lol.
Now Mr Mal on the other hand with his reflash can hit 90+, but the belt goes bye bye very quick. But this is all common knowledge to you lol.
Always Watching
New Member
Then I should invest in a new GPS, cause it clearly said 83 and 84 MPH.
I'm well aware of how a CVT clutch works and how to tune it. I've measured all the XP clutches throughout the years and know their pros and cons. I can tell you there IS massaging that can be done, and stay off the rev limiter regardless of the novel that you just wrote. But, I'm not here to tell you how to get there.
///Airdam Clutches
Active Member
I am 100% aware of what limits the clutch. Pull a black spacer from the top of the primary spring and wooo'pow. More gear ratio. You can't get 83 on the dash though. GPS corrected speed maybe. As you said you did. But all the numbers I refer to are on the dash. Because there a good number of vehicles that have an actual speed limiter in the ecu. And they don't go by GPS. They go by what the dash reads. So for testing sake, and any number I post a machine will do, are the speed indicated on the speed-o
That is truely a joke, until that ends being the case, it will continue not to make sense. The question is why is it allowed to continue? A total conflict of interest!
the stripping shop
RACER - UTVUnderground Approved
Nobody has the time or patience to deal with utvra that's why
Totaly understand the time and patience issue, I'm coming from decades of racing in other classes, so I'm not sure why the UTV's are not treated like all the other classes and why there is a seperate Org. (UTVRA) even involved. Just asking the question from my total ignorance, Why arent the rules and Tech not handled by BITD? what is the benefit of having these tasks handled by an outside Org. run by a active racer?
facteryfmf
Looking For a Few Good Men - UTVUnderground Approv
There is no correct answer to those questions
BiggJim
I Hate Rules - UTVUnderground Approved
Truthfully I think it was because back in the day when UTVs started racing Casey wanted nothing to do with them and Cory stepped up and volunteered to handle it so casey didnt have to deal with it. Any of you OG UTV'rs can confirm?
That makes sense, that when it was a new class of race car that the promoters, and in this case Casey didnt want or know what to do with them. So someone stepped up to make it happen, and that is admirable, but I think everybody would agree that it has grown way beyond that and beyond what i'm sure anybody back then could have imagined. So now the question on everybodies minds is what to do now and where it should go. I will give this guy the benefit of the doubt that he wants whats best for UTV racing and is not just a selfish cat just looking out for his own interests. If the later is the case and I hope it is not, then he should obviously be driven out of the sport by any means possible. If the former is the case, then he can be worked with. He is just one guy against 100's of racers, the masses have some power. Wonder what would happen if everybody just said either he goes or we wont race, bet he would be gone pretty fast when thousnads of dollars in entry fee's are at stake. I'm sure that is quite a bit over simplified and is just to make a point. Has there ever been a meeting where he has been talked to enmass by the other racers?
I can explain it, from what my understanding is. When UTV desert racing was first introduced, the desert racing series know nothing about UTV's and they raced in a sportsman class. The class needed representation as the series promoters and tech directors did not know what they were looking for or at. Corey a UTV racer started the UTVRA which became that Org. to define and establish the rules for racing a UTV. When your starting up a new class which does not conform to any other classes, doing what Corey did is what has made UTV racing. Lets give credit where it belongs. Corey put a ton of time and effort into growing the UTV class.
But fast forward to today when you have 50+ UTV entry's at a single race, manufacture support from multiple brands, Manufactures sponsoring races like the Mint 400 and sponsoring the series who run the races. Now that little Org has done all it can do and it needs to see that UTV racing has out grown them. The Promoters now have a baseline to go off of, the Tech directors if doing their jobs should be learning about the UTV's. And what was once seen as a racer helping the sport grow is not looked at as a conflict of interest, and is actually hurting the sport.
Think of it as a Union. There was a time when the Unions were needed in this country to protect the American workers. But today, with the federal & state laws protecting the works, Unions are no longer needed and in many cases have hurt the American Worker. Unions have become big business and are now about lining deep pockets.
The same can be said about the UTVRA. HE was needed at one time, but that time has come & gone, and now HE is seen as a huge conflict of interest. The UTV class still needs representation, but it needs to be in the form of a non bias committee that can review and govern the body of rules. Tech needs to be managed by the series. And rules need to be voted in & out by a Committee who listens to what the racers have to say as a group, not an individual. If Corey chose to retire his helmet, and remove himself from all manufacture support and financial backing, then I could very easily see Corey's UTVRA continuing on. But Corey still wants to be a racer, with backing, and you cant do both.
Score does just fine without the UTVRA. They do their own tech, and because of the racers Score has chosen to follow the rules set by the UTVRA, as Score understands making rules for each series will quickly kill a class or push racers away from their races.
Cognito I'm not questioning what your heard or were told, but I will call B.S on this. The reason I say B.S is the UTV racer is paying the same entry fee's, and is one if not the largest classes in BITD right now. There is no way BITD is not going to not tech the UTV's if requested to. What has happened is Casey is lazy in this regard, as he does not handle or manage tech. He does not want too! This is why he has a tech staff and while some might be volunteering their time, several are paid by BITD. Its been that way for all the series, including Score. Casey has entrusted Cory over the years and will listen to Cory first before listening to you in regards to Tech. Cory does not cost Casey any money as Cory is making his money by charging you the Racer for Tech. The rest of the classes, there "Tech Payment" is part of that same entry fee you are already paying.
Once again how is it Score, More, Snore and what ever other series you can think of doing their own tech? BITD & the UTV's are the only class & series that I know of where they have a separate tech from everyone else, and pay an additional fee for it too. Think about it Cory is making around $1000 per race is tech fee's. Why would he want to give that up? As a kickback does Cory get free BITD entry fee's too? Maybe, Maybe not?? I know when you helped the MDR series, Patricia used to reduce a volunteer/racers entry fee to only the Prize Money portion of the entry fee. Giving away an entry fee is cheap for not having to deal with the largest class that is bring in the most revenue for your series, in entry fee's and sponsorship dollars. Just something to think about??
i am on the same page as you are, completely agree.
Thanks to both of you guys that explains quite a bit. Back when there were just a few cars running this obviously was not a big deal. The other thing I believe you touched on is that this one persons decisions don't just affect 50 or so racers, but a whole industry that has grown up around UTV racing. I wont even mention the manufacture's they go without saying, but there are hundreds of people running bussiness trying to make a living and feed their families, from fabrication shops, to race car builders, to aftermarket companies. The livelyhood of these people and their businesses depend on the success and future of the sport UTV market and in the future of UTV racing in particular. For one person to have that much power over an industry that has grown so big and affects so many lives does not make any sense. It appears to me that a large majority of the racers and the companies that support them want and see a need for a change. So change it should be. I think that somebody with the contacts amongst the racers and the race shops and companies should schedule a meeting to get together as many of them as possible and try to figure out something better for the sport. Like was mentioned, if SCORE, MORE, SNORE and all of the other org. can tech and race UTV'S without UTVRA then BITD can too. Entry fees were mentioned in an earlier post as being the same, maybe i'm mistaken but I thought that the UTV's were not paying as much as the other cars. For Henderson I believe the UTV'S total entry fee is $800.00 and for all other cars and trucks the total $1100.00 maybe the answer is to start paying what every body else are paying.
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