BITD Class Vote on turbos

[Oc1]

Are u referring to the drive line bring out of phase? Wouldn't just cutting the shaft and rewelding solve that problem ?

FYI we haven't had an issue with the driveline or carriers. We have two drive lines and both seem to be ok. I think one is actually phased correctly.

Driveline phase and the angle of the outputs are 2 different animals. I think he explained it pretty well if you go back and read it again.

 

[badassmav]

Are u referring to the drive line bring out of phase? Wouldn't just cutting the shaft and rewelding solve that problem ?

FYI we haven't had an issue with the driveline or carriers. We have two drive lines and both seem to be ok. I think one is actually phased correctly.

No, I didn't reference that at all, although I should have, for the following reasons
-First, because the improper "clocking" of 2 u-joints on a common shaft, (otherwise known as "phasing, or "timing") is only done to avoid what I explained in my last post, that being two u-joints working against each other
- Secondly, because all of the RZR's Ive worked on are delivered from the factory with this oversight. The engineers on the Razor program are pretty smart. It baffles me how they allowed an oversight on something as basic as this. Thinking about it, I guess one could strategically clock the u-joints to compensate for the different u-joint operating angles at each end of the shaft. Hmm...........Nah, they're not that smart!
Even if the operating angles (which is what I was talking about in my last post) are the same, if the u-joints aren't welded onto the drive shaft in the same orientation (or mirror image to each other, for lack of a better term), there will still be a battle between them to control the rotating speed of the drive shaft. This clever You Tube video clearly illustrates how operating angles of u-joints affect the rotational speed of a drive shaft.

 

[george.felix]

That's a great video clearly depicts and quantifies the effect you mentioned. The angles are a function if the design but the phasing can be corrected. Thanks!

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Are u referring to the drive line bring out of phase? Wouldn't just cutting the shaft and rewelding solve that problem ?
FYI we haven't had an issue with the driveline or carriers. We have two drive lines and both seem to be ok. I think one is actually phased correctly.

The 'just' is the problem. If these '16 turbos were sold on the premise that 'just' yanking out your entire driveline will indeed solve the first of your many short/long term issues painstakingly outlined by BAM and countless others elsewhere..offering more HP than anybody else on the market would lose value instantly. If you are telling us that one of your vehicles is markedly different than the other in any respect related the driveline..I rest my case. Most people (and I'm not including you) have absolutely no clue as to how simple rotational misalignment, material/joint choices, support with longer/multiple shafts, output/input designs 9etc.) or even simple physics grossly affects the long term reliability of high speed/torsional systems built just as inexpensively as they possibly can be with durability as an afterthought.
The driveline changes made to the '16 turbo were much more than 'just' HP/torsional load related and anybody who takes the time to study these changes in any detail will realize this pretty quickly.
Put it this way: The XP's previously approved driveline design (remember the 'plastic' sprague carrier?) was SO bad and had SO many issues that I don't even have to study what they put in next.
These engineers are probably half-way competent were most likely forced early in the XP1000 process to present both the design that made their CEO look the best (original) and the one that actually worked (most likely something resembling the current design).
Both parties can now claim that they were 'right' in terms of profit realized or common sense and customer satisfaction with the '16 models moving forward ('plus' our current machines will be a fantastic parts business for many years to come).

The results unlikely to ever be made public or they would have by now. It's possible to organize over Cory's objection and go to Casey and ask to take control away from Cory and form the committe but have to have a game plan if Casey insists this is Cory's baby. The only option I see is not showing up to races. I don't know that he'd be overly concerned about his customers being less than happy as long as they continue to spend their money at Bluewater for example. Only a handful of guys need this race.

Agreed. You guys were thrown a bone (very early) that didn't mean absolutely anything (viewing a 'poll' that he would obviously ignore) and this is indeed a very common practice/strategy when the townspeople have the torches/pitchforks out and are beating at the door. He knew very well that it was the right move when you all were being asked if you needed a 'tissue' over the issue..and nobody even so much as 'blinked' a tear that he could help you with.
"..Only a handful of guys need this race..."
I'll take that a step further to offer that only a handful of guys NEED to race despite any less than sincere insistence that they want all of you (presently) there each and every week, slowing them down and effectively reducing their chances of taking home a title. The fans (and I'm speaking for myself here) are looking for the very latest car in as 'stock' a configuration as possible racing against we could care less 'who' driving anything equal to or less than that 'OEM' model.
Bottom line: If there are only 5 guys racing the latest and the greatest on any given day the average fan will click on that race first to catch up on desert racing. If there are others who believe that they should be included in that race?...you'd darn well better start putting pressure on those who claim that you are their 'best buddies' to make a stand with you in this respect..or accept the fact that we'll all be following THEM very soon with no tissues needed.

 

[BiggJim]

I'll take it a step further to offer that factory sponsored teams with an unlimited supply of next day air shipped '15 driveline parts and/or '16 beefed up turbos (with probably even faster service potential) have a definite advantage going in to the final races of this season and the points championship. Not taking away anything from those in the hunt now or how they got there...but drivelines and motors are about the only thing left in these cars that is recognizable as factory engineered/brand specific designed..with even a good share of these major components also manufactured elsewhere.

If Polaris did their homework (finally) on the '16 and you're a race team rocking 'brand new' anything beefier than the prone to failure outdated mess described above that an opponent breathing down your neck has been beating the daylights out of all season long? (which I have a hard time believing anybody 'in the hunt' would not simply replace with but a few races to go simply because they can and that they'd be stupid not to)...you're feeling pretty darn good at this point about not running out of skill rather than luck.

A year from now nobody will care about these older machines. 2 years from now, Polaris will be selling one heck of a lot of repair parts for these dinosaurs, slightly fewer for the '16s, a whole bunch of new '16/'17s if the present cvt design holds its water against upcoming geared assaults or the economy doesn't completely tank..and at the same time teasing us all about the '17/'18(?) to whip up preorders.

Best of luck to whoever wins this championship as it might just be one that is talked about well in to the future.

I dont know what you think you know about factory teams but We don't get any special privilege on getting parts shipped to us. We have waited a month for a tranny before. They are not going to stop a production line to send out repair parts. I crack up when I read things like this.

 

[BiggJim]

So you mean to tell me that you guys are sponsored by Mystik and run AGL in the transmission? Sponsored by Sparks, who builds the motors, so I know Brandon has at the very least the rods switched to Carrillo, CP pistons, valves, springs, Webs, and left the transmission completely stock?! Come on now. If Brandon builds the transmission as well, I highly doubt it's stock and runs AGL and not a better quality oil which would yield a higher life span with even the Peer bearings. I know where the failures come from and why they happen, the pinion assembly tries to climb back out of the bore and pops the heads off the retention plate bolts. Front output snaps behind the snorkel gear due to a high tolerance in the hob/broach. Torsional load issue in my opinion. My anonymity has nothing to do with anything, I've been at this a long time, but you're welcome to question what I say as you please.

Yes, we are sponsored by mystik and we use AGL transmission oil. We use Mystik for all of our CV grease and engine oils. The transmission is completely stock except for inspection after X amount of miles in which we replace necessary bearings. Less is more in this situation.....the more you molest shit the more prone to failure. We do all of our transmission work in house, Brandon builds engines not Transmissions.

Its no secret the our engine is built. Its built with the Best parts.....by the Best builder. Any time you are building more power you would be a fool to leave stock rods in. However look at the guys that run stock engines. I dont see a bunch of smashed cases.

 

[BiggJim]

I'm not sure what failure you're talking about. The first race in Parker we started late, and were only allowed to complete 1 lap. The alternator was hardly used in the first 3 races, as they all were run in the daylight. I don't recall the alternator or driveshaft side lining us in any of the races I was involved in this year (Parker, San Felipe, Mint).
I do however know that Polaris made a physical change to the drive shaft layout in the 2016 models for reasons other than me not being satisfied in their design.

I think it was san felipe you guys had the mass carnage because of the custom drive line.

 

[ironworks]

I think it was san felipe you guys had the mass carnage because of the custom drive line.

This seems to be what I remember also.
http://utvunderground.com/forum/index.php?threads/marc-burnett-san-felipe-250-race-report.16971/

 

[1913 PREP TEAM]

This thread has been the most amusing thing I have read in a long time. Its covered like 3 different topics, only one pertaining to why it was started. Lets get back to the original topic .

 

[badassmav]

I think it was san felipe you guys had the mass carnage because of the custom drive line.

Ah yes. We were trying out some crazy new clutch set up. In the end, it was somewhat suspect that the clutch disintegrated, and took out the driveshaft. I drew this conclusion because the cvt cover remains were indicative of shrapnel flying outwards away from the cover as opposed to an implosion where debris flew into the cvt.

 

[Johnny]

what was the original topic ?

 

[jajl22]

Badassmav, Thx for posting the quick video on the drive shaft angles, i didn't know that. Learn something new everyday!

 

[JoeyD23]

what was the original topic ?

Tube diameter?

 

[Johnny]

oh ya so like I was saying you should not run tubes in your tires unless your running the new out dated 30" tires if so do not run larger tube diameter then the tire diameter ..

 

[JoeyD23]

I think we should vote Johnny out. Anyone agree?

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

what was the original topic ?

I think it was the BITD turbo vote...one guy brought up that fact a few posts ago..
another asked for the results to be published here as promised (in full)...
...while yet another claimed that they (probably) never would be...which apparently is accurate given the time that has elapsed since that promise was first made (here).

It morphed in to exactly why but one car now being raced is far superior (or soon will be as the bugs are worked out very quickly) to all others from the same manufacturer...same displacement...same class.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I dont know what you think you know about factory teams but We don't get any special privilege on getting parts shipped to us. We have waited a month for a tranny before. They are not going to stop a production line to send out repair parts. I crack up when I read things like this.

Not to go off-topic..but what 'break' in this racing season lasts a full month long or more? With the next obvious question being...what top 3 factory sponsored team in the history of racing anything has NOT had the factory bend over backwards in the last two races to accommodate them..especially when that company leads all others in the category..by a country mile?
Polaris:
"Welllll, 'yeah'...we know that you guys are in the middle of cinching up this title for us...but the very best that we could possibly do is pull a tranny out of production (which we would NEVER do!)...as we have no idea whatsoever of how either of us could locate a spare tranny anywhere else in the world (let alone on a machine sitting in someone's backyard) to help both you guys AND us out..."
"Sorry about that!"

 

[Johnny]

oh one car being far superior I think is far reaching the turbo can ams are not doing bad and have had some serious time to get dialed in .. and as it sounds like you know you can have a few things going down
best car in the world but nobody that can drive it
fastest car in the world and can drive but dont have the suspension and handling
fast car, great handling, great suspension, great driver and bad race prep
I think that the most horsepower in all forms of racing is not enough

as far as the survey It is what it is ? would be nice but I feel the questions really dont matter as Bill found out Cory will listen but is still going to do what he feels is best for the class ..

so we have to wait and see what happens ... hell maybe yamaha is coming out with a bas ass rhino tomorrow that will really change the racing game !!!

So Its your legacy ...who are ya ?

 

[Johnny]

Not to go off-topic..but what 'break' in this racing season lasts a full month long or more? With the next obvious question being...what top 3 factory sponsored team in the history of racing anything has NOT had the factory bend over backwards in the last two races to accommodate them..especially when that company leads all others in the category..by a country mile?
Polaris:
"Welllll, 'yeah'...we know that you guys are in the middle of cinching up this title for us...but the very best that we could possibly do is pull a tranny out of production (which we would NEVER do!)...as we have no idea whatsoever of how either of us could locate a spare tranny anywhere else in the world (let alone on a machine sitting in someone's backyard) to help both you guys AND us out..."
"Sorry about that!"

Boy if this is how it is ive done missed the boat !

I think things have changed so fast that Polaris really does not know who the TOP three Factory Teams are ?
and just like me when they gave me a car they had no clue I would do halfway decent lol nor did I ..

so tell me please who are the top three teams and why you think they are the top three teams and If they do not finish the season out as top points in the class are they still the top three ?

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

oh one car being far superior I think is far reaching the turbo can ams are not doing bad and have had some serious time to get dialed in .. and as it sounds like you know you can have a few things going down
best car in the world but nobody that can drive it
fastest car in the world and can drive but dont have the suspension and handling
fast car, great handling, great suspension, great driver and bad race prep
I think that the most horsepower in all forms of racing is not enough

Who am I to say...but I don't think that anybody who lined up against you at V2R was concerned that you and your team didn't have every single one of the needed items described above 'covered'. Your team and others having even 'some' manner of factory support probably drove their concern for what would happen next concerning their racing future in this class (especially when you were racing an identical car that looked absolutely nothing like theirs in terms of a driveline/motor appearing to outclass theirs by a mile..which isn't saying much). I'm guessing that they're not concerned with beating you in terms of what a team and driver needs to win. Maybe not even with your new machine (which was a near miracle). I'm guessing again that a good share of them are concerned with being driven out of the class altogether (financially) and most importantly not being able to race you and the other top drivers...period. They know full well that many fans will follow you and the other top drivers if you are all driving (only) the latest and greatest no matter what class you land in. So when the top drivers (as was suggested earlier on this site without any dissent) start hinting that they run the top ten guys first, ignore even minor nerfing as a position penalty or insist that there's nothing significantly different in one model to the next ..you guys might just as well be in your own class anyways given the advantage(s) piling up on top of them.

as far as the survey It is what it is ? would be nice but I feel the questions really dont matter as Bill found out Cory will listen but is still going to do what he feels is best for the class ..

Maybe some of these guys are figuring that if the questions really don't matter...why were they asked to give their input in the first place or be assured that it would be shared here?

So Its your legacy ...who are ya ?

I'm no different than anybody else. I was a long time advocate for believing that we could possibly build a united community around these machines/do some good while at it. Racing was probably our last shot at that concept in terms of building awareness around issues such as safety/land stewardship using that vehicle. We're the baddest guys on the offroad block yet with no soul whatsoever and it's been that way since day one.

I strongly believe that a lot of these guys deserved to receive a lot better than they did this year in terms of what was expected of them/others given what they contributed to this sport and its fans in 2015.