BITD Class Vote on turbos

[Always Watching]

The drive train is totally up to the task. I have 2000 race miles on the stock drive train with out any issues.

So you might want to take off you aluminum tin foil hat and look out side that box, your legacy might depend on it.

And I'm sure the Can Am never breaks. When things get used like this they are gonna break. I'm telling you I have had zero drive train issues and Only know of a few people who have had issues a few times in racing situations with proper prep. After every race your need to send in most transaxles from race cars in class 10 and class 1 and have them gone thru and that is with custom high dollar race parts. Most of those transmissions cost more then an entire XP1000. When you think of how stock Johnnys Turbo car was and to even finish the V2R let alone with him driving, that is pretty impressive. It would be a much shorter list for me to tell you the parts on my car that are not available from the Polaris dealer.

Next Time your gonna try and lynch some one you should look outside your little world at the big picture. For the asking price of these cars they are pretty amazing. But even brand new puppies die once in a while. Anything mechanical can break at any time and with your VAST experience you should this. No one has even invented any automobile that never breaks.

You posted that these cars are totally up the the task, which they aren't, and I posted with a reply as to why they aren't. Then you state that everything breaks, so which is it, they are up to the task, or they need better parts and prep to be up to the task of running 500-1000 mile desert races? Just facts, the 1000 needs transmission bearings, different bolts for the retention plate, and better oil. Beyond that, you need to worry about busting teeth off the gears, and luckily with a helical setup, they run through other gears and you'll replace multiple. You and others may have gotten lucky, but the Peer bearings and AGL are a sure bet on a failure. I can see you're that guy who takes shots at people rather than add any credible info the conversation when someone points out something that you may or may not agree with. Classy. I didn't try to lynch anyone, just posted the facts, don't need to get into a pissing match to prove anything. I know where my "vast" knowledge stands in the Industry.

 

[bluediamond]

As a complete outsider and a fan of the class , so my opinion means nothing, I will say that myself and all my off road racing buddies think its just plain dumb not to have a Prodution Pro class racing each manufacturers fastest/ trickest cars. There has to be some way that you guys can come up with that would allow the new car in the pro production class and not chase out the teams that have built cars in the last few years.

 

[BiggJim]

You posted that these cars are totally up the the task, which they aren't, and I posted with a reply as to why they aren't. Then you state that everything breaks, so which is it, they are up to the task, or they need better parts and prep to be up to the task of running 500-1000 mile desert races? Just facts, the 1000 needs transmission bearings, different bolts for the retention plate, and better oil. Beyond that, you need to worry about busting teeth off the gears, and luckily with a helical setup, they run through other gears and you'll replace multiple. You and others may have gotten lucky, but the Peer bearings and AGL are a sure bet on a failure. I can see you're that guy who takes shots at people rather than add any credible info the conversation when someone points out something that you may or may not agree with. Classy. I didn't try to lynch anyone, just posted the facts, don't need to get into a pissing match to prove anything. I know where my "vast" knowledge stands in the Industry.

Lol, another Anonymous..... better oil? Rentention? Better bearings? Busted gears? Our race car has thousands of miles.....none of the aforementioned parts have broke on us! Lucky you say? Na..... i think its just called maintenance. Cars prone to breaking the parts mentioned on ypur other post have a bad habit of landing on the nose on the gas.

 

[ironworks]

You posted that these cars are totally up the the task, which they aren't, and I posted with a reply as to why they aren't. Then you state that everything breaks, so which is it, they are up to the task, or they need better parts and prep to be up to the task of running 500-1000 mile desert races? Just facts, the 1000 needs transmission bearings, different bolts for the retention plate, and better oil. Beyond that, you need to worry about busting teeth off the gears, and luckily with a helical setup, they run through other gears and you'll replace multiple. You and others may have gotten lucky, but the Peer bearings and AGL are a sure bet on a failure. I can see you're that guy who takes shots at people rather than add any credible info the conversation when someone points out something that you may or may not agree with. Classy. I didn't try to lynch anyone, just posted the facts, don't need to get into a pissing match to prove anything. I know where my "vast" knowledge stands in the Industry.

Well most of the cars that dnf are not for drive train issues. Desert racing is the roughest element you can do in a UTV and I don't care what carry you in the desert every car is gonna break at some point. But for johnny to take a stock UTV with desert racing mods and a bird approved safety package and finish the race in a top 5 gives all the facts needed.

And just because a guy who know one knows says some thing true doesn't make it. As far as I know your just another troll hoping to UTV some day.

But with the logic you continue to display I think Hilary really needs your help to cut up quotes and only use half of what some one actually says. Let me know how the arm chair engineering degree you got from the discovery channel works out. I'm waiting your line of utvs that out run the xp1000

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

I'm not here to boast my credentials, but between BITD, Lucas, and dune cars I've fixed roughly 20 transmissions due to bearing failures, front outputs snapping behind the snorkel gear, pinion assembly failures, retention plate bolts snapping the heads off, etc. Factor in another 5+ motors that have windmilled the cases due to the cast fractured rods snapping, rear portion of the driveshaft bending, front driveshaft not being phased correctly and not balanced, carrier bearings coming apart, etc etc..

I'll take it a step further to offer that factory sponsored teams with an unlimited supply of next day air shipped '15 driveline parts and/or '16 beefed up turbos (with probably even faster service potential) have a definite advantage going in to the final races of this season and the points championship. Not taking away anything from those in the hunt now or how they got there...but drivelines and motors are about the only thing left in these cars that is recognizable as factory engineered/brand specific designed..with even a good share of these major components also manufactured elsewhere.

If Polaris did their homework (finally) on the '16 and you're a race team rocking 'brand new' anything beefier than the prone to failure outdated mess described above that an opponent breathing down your neck has been beating the daylights out of all season long? (which I have a hard time believing anybody 'in the hunt' would not simply replace with but a few races to go simply because they can and that they'd be stupid not to)...you're feeling pretty darn good at this point about not running out of skill rather than luck.

A year from now nobody will care about these older machines. 2 years from now, Polaris will be selling one heck of a lot of repair parts for these dinosaurs, slightly fewer for the '16s, a whole bunch of new '16/'17s if the present cvt design holds its water against upcoming geared assaults or the economy doesn't completely tank..and at the same time teasing us all about the '17/'18(?) to whip up preorders.

Best of luck to whoever wins this championship as it might just be one that is talked about well in to the future.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

"..As far as I know your just another troll hoping to UTV some day...But with the logic you continue to display I think Hilary really needs your help to cut up quotes and only use half of what some one actually says. Let me know how the arm chair engineering degree you got from the discovery channel works out. I'm waiting your line of utvs that out run the xp1000.."

Again, we can't talk about how this Polaris turbo is changing everything right in the middle of what will evidently be a nail-biter season finish without being prevented from honestly evaluating its introduction as compared to what is being run presently by everybody but one team (deservedly) in the hunt.

Recently, I watched maybe 3 or 4 videos of actual Polaris engineers standing over a car that looked just like mine telling me what I already knew as to how they (finally) fixed my car's drivetrain.

It was as if they were telling me to accept the simple truth of what most everybody with common sense full well realized when they really looked over their car for the first time or simply drove it outside the heroin-like atmosphere of the dealership.

They seemed to (mockingly) say:
"..You're jealous..you should be..I guarantee that you'll be divorced if you buy another..get over it.."

I didn't.

 

[Always Watching]

Lol, another Anonymous..... better oil? Rentention? Better bearings? Busted gears? Our race car has thousands of miles.....none of the aforementioned parts have broke on us! Lucky you say? Na..... i think its just called maintenance. Cars prone to breaking the parts mentioned on ypur other post have a bad habit of landing on the nose on the gas.

So you mean to tell me that you guys are sponsored by Mystik and run AGL in the transmission? Sponsored by Sparks, who builds the motors, so I know Brandon has at the very least the rods switched to Carrillo, CP pistons, valves, springs, Webs, and left the transmission completely stock?! Come on now. If Brandon builds the transmission as well, I highly doubt it's stock and runs AGL and not a better quality oil which would yield a higher life span with even the Peer bearings. I know where the failures come from and why they happen, the pinion assembly tries to climb back out of the bore and pops the heads off the retention plate bolts. Front output snaps behind the snorkel gear due to a high tolerance in the hob/broach. Torsional load issue in my opinion. My anonymity has nothing to do with anything, I've been at this a long time, but you're welcome to question what I say as you please.

Well most of the cars that dnf are not for drive train issues. Desert racing is the roughest element you can do in a UTV and I don't care what carry you in the desert every car is gonna break at some point. But for johnny to take a stock UTV with desert racing mods and a bird approved safety package and finish the race in a top 5 gives all the facts needed.

And just because a guy who know one knows says some thing true doesn't make it. As far as I know your just another troll hoping to UTV some day.

But with the logic you continue to display I think Hilary really needs your help to cut up quotes and only use half of what some one actually says. Let me know how the arm chair engineering degree you got from the discovery channel works out. I'm waiting your line of utvs that out run the xp1000

I'm not saying or eluding to another car being better than an XP1000. I build XP1000 cars, motors, transmissions daily, they are great, but they need work to be right for what we do. I wouldn't discredit anything Johnny or the UTV Inc team did in regards to V2R, but if you don't think there are underlying issues that will need to be addressed before Parker, you're crazy. We are talking ONE race here, hardly enough time to get any kind of failure rate analysis. Parts failures may or may not come since the motor now has forged internals, better clutching and a revised transmission, but time will tell. And for the "logic" I display, it comes from the "front lines" of someone who knows the ins and outs of these cars, not some keyboard warrior.

 

[ironworks]

So you mean to tell me that you guys are sponsored by Mystik and run AGL in the transmission? Sponsored by Sparks, who builds the motors, so I know Brandon has at the very least the rods switched to Carrillo, CP pistons, valves, springs, Webs, and left the transmission completely stock?! Come on now. If Brandon builds the transmission as well, I highly doubt it's stock and runs AGL and not a better quality oil which would yield a higher life span with even the Peer bearings. I know where the failures come from and why they happen, the pinion assembly tries to climb back out of the bore and pops the heads off the retention plate bolts. Front output snaps behind the snorkel gear due to a high tolerance in the hob/broach. Torsional load issue in my opinion. My anonymity has nothing to do with anything, I've been at this a long time, but you're welcome to question what I say as you please.




I'm not saying or eluding to another car being better than an XP1000. I build XP1000 cars, motors, transmissions daily, they are great, but they need work to be right for what we do. I wouldn't discredit anything Johnny or the UTV Inc team did in regads to V2R, but if you don't think there are underlying issues that will need to be addressed before Parker, you're crazy. We are talking ONE race here, hardly enough time to get any kind of failure rate analysis. Parts failures may or may not come since the motor now has forged internals, better clutching and a revised transmission, but time will tell. And for the "logic" I display, it comes from the "front lines" of someone who knows the ins and outs of these cars, not some keyboard warrior.

From the front lines but with out a name. Nothing gives street cred like the guy with no name. Seems legit.

 

[crazywatson]

Let's face it the Polaris's are junk. That's why they can't win a SCORE championship. A real racing series. I'm sure the Murray's will pull ahead by years end. For another Can Am championship. Worst mistake Can Am has made so far is letting Marc Burnett go! The Murray's will take up the slack in the factory sponsored riders though.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Always Watching said:
"..My anonymity has nothing to do with anything, I've been at this a long time, but you're welcome to question what I say as you please.
I'm not saying or eluding to another car being better than an XP1000. I build XP1000 cars, motors, transmissions daily, they are great, but they need work to be right for what we do. I wouldn't discredit anything Johnny or the UTV Inc team did in regards to V2R, but if you don't think there are underlying issues that will need to be addressed before Parker, you're crazy. We are talking ONE race here, hardly enough time to get any kind of failure rate analysis. Parts failures may or may not come since the motor now has forged internals, better clutching and a revised transmission, but time will tell. And for the "logic" I display, it comes from the "front lines" of someone who knows the ins and outs of these cars, not some keyboard warrior.."

No, you're a Polaris 'hater' (plain and simple) who needs to be attacked for simply explaining (first-hand) the documentable truth as to any one particular generation of a Polaris product with no malice or agenda in hand.
I'd like to ask one question of the board:
Can this discussion refer back to Jaggedx's (page 6) insistence and (I assume) 'anonymous' (evil) V2R vote commentary 'supposedly' posted here or elsewhere (as promised)...so that at least the 'fans' receive some kind of assurance that the racers themselves have come to some level of understanding/conclusion within the bounds of sanity and/or their desires on this particular thread topic.

I have (unfortunately) spent a lot of time over the years fighting for people's voices to be heard when the 'allowed' time finally arrives for them to do so and for that voice to be properly recorded.

Given that the fans of utv racing are continually attacked for offering their commentary (ideal coverage/sport development, illegal nerfing, the realities of engineering, etc.) perhaps it would be refreshing to hear what the racers have to say as the sport is literally embroiled/its future possibly in doubt at this critical juncture.

(jaggedx):
"...This is for the what it's worth department! I am meeting with Cory later this week and I will be sharing the findings from the survey we did at V2R. After we meet I will share all the results here and I will ask Cory to post them on Utvra as well.."

 

[racer570]

Please post the results. thanks

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

This class better pull their heads out of their asses and get organized.

"..The class needs to decide to take a step in the direction of being in control of their class or just stop complaining about Cory and deal with whatever decisions he makes for you."

Please post the results. thanks

I (sincerely) hate to be the bearer of bad news (as if others haven't expressed it already)...yet it's effectively 'over' in terms of the class that you all once knew even after that first turbo was allowed to compete.
If you guys were ever interested in getting organized or truly being in control of your own (class) destiny as Johnny pulled 144 HP and something passing as a driveline up to the starting line at V2R..you all would have simply done it by now. If Angal hadn't overheated or ran in to whatever other problems he had that relegated him to 5th..this conversation would be over and everybody knows it.

This season (as again, somebody has already offered) will go down in history with an asteriik beside it with absolutely nothing taken away from those who raced or won it.

The note on the bottom of the page will say this:
Advancements in the sport spiritually, financially and realistically destroyed this class and the will of its (average) competitors well before the season was over. The champion overcame the most contentious season in UTV history despite this most competitive class ceasing to exist as anything that it resembled previous due to notable advancements by multiple manufacturers in 2015/2016.

If you guys are still looking to race 'classic' UTVs well in to the future...you'd better start getting your acts together pretty quickly in terms of who you are now or 'were' before this segment changed forever with cars built much beefier and/or with (significantly) more ponies.

What are the odds of 2 Asian guys/gals someday (soon) winning a 1000-based 'classic' race using the tortoise/hare concept, a bulletproof drivetrain/motor combination and a little luck?

Again, 'game over' in terms of what the average race fan or 'sell on Monday' target will (eventually) become unless 'paddle shifters' become all the rage.

 

[badassmav]

No disrespect to Bad Ass Mav....But they molested the shit out of their driveline adding an alternator and such is the reason they had a failure....Ask any of the teams that have been racing polaris for more than a half season....None of them have had any drive line issues.

For the record, I'd hardly say that I "molested the shit" out of Marc's 2015 Monster xp driveline. I only added a pulley right before the bolted stationary joint at the front of the driveline. Everything else was bone stock. It had a negligible, if any effect on the UN-reliability of the driveline.
You can see the flex in the carrier bearing here, when Marc was still running a bone stock motor:

If it was so reliable in 2015, then why did the factory rework the transmission output shaft seal and bearing, and reduce the number of splined slip joints in the driveshaft from 2 to 1?
C'mon Jim, you know I don't "molest" anything. My mods are always well thought out, and are never lacking in craftsmanship. I did a near identical mod to the Monster Mav, and it proved reliable for 2 years. It was problematic on the Polaris due to the lengthy driveshafts coupled together using 2 slip joints, and a carrier bearing that is softer than a baby's ass. For the record, Marc no longer runs an alternator on his Polaris.

I know you hate to hear me say this, but I'll say it again: Marc's ability to push a UTV at, and past its limits exceeds that of most the drivers in his class. Therefore, he will exploit any vulnerability in any UTE he drives. Anybody feeling differently can offer up a challenge to him to run a lap on any track of their choice in bone stock cars and see how ther compare. Offer up a cash bet. He loves that shit.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

You can see the flex in the carrier bearing here, when Marc was still running a bone stock motor:

"..If it was so reliable in 2015, then why did the factory rework the transmission output shaft seal and bearing, and reduce the number of splined slip joints in the driveshaft from 2 to 1?
...It was problematic on the Polaris due to the lengthy driveshafts coupled together using 2 slip joints, and a carrier bearing that is softer than a baby's ass.."

...sprague carriers, being able to swap differential shim positions (believe it or not) for (cough) 'improvement'..the list goes on.
We didn't receive anything reliable because 'reliable' was not only already eating up engineering time in development/testing/production...but effectively causing everything else being currently produced to immediately become obsolete. The latter statement is pure speculation on my part (at the moment) as we'll soon see if even a portion of these parts are 'that' much more expensive to produce on '16 N/A cars for reliability's sake and/or for a bone thrown to those desiring something more HP-wise after the purchase.

Regardless, I'm going go out on a limb here and claim that the vast majority of '14/'15 recreational AND race ready owners would be ecstatic with their bone stock N/A motors (forever) and a properly engineered driveline that they never received for obvious reasons.

 

[george.felix]

The results unlikely to ever be made public or they would have by now.

It's possible to organize over Cory's objection and go to Casey and ask to take control away from Cory and form the committe but have to have a game plan if Casey insists this is Cory's baby. The only option I see is not showing up to races. I don't know that he'd be overly concerned about his customers being less than happy as long as they continue to spend their money at Bluewater for example. Only a handful of guys need this race.

 

[ironworks]

For the record, I'd hardly say that I "molested the shit" out of Marc's 2015 Monster xp driveline. I only added a pulley right before the bolted stationary joint at the front of the driveline. Everything else was bone stock. It had a negligible, if any effect on the UN-reliability of the driveline.
You can see the flex in the carrier bearing here, when Marc was still running a bone stock motor:

If it was so reliable in 2015, then why did the factory rework the transmission output shaft seal and bearing, and reduce the number of splined slip joints in the driveshaft from 2 to 1?
C'mon Jim, you know I don't "molest" anything. My mods are always well thought out, and are never lacking in craftsmanship. I did a near identical mod to the Monster Mav, and it proved reliable for 2 years. It was problematic on the Polaris due to the lengthy driveshafts coupled together using 2 slip joints, and a carrier bearing that is softer than a baby's ass. For the record, Marc no longer runs an alternator on his Polaris.

I know you hate to hear me say this, but I'll say it again: Marc's ability to push a UTV at, and past its limits exceeds that of most the drivers in his class. Therefore, he will exploit any vulnerability in any UTE he drives. Anybody feeling differently can offer up a challenge to him to run a lap on any track of their choice in bone stock cars and see how ther compare. Offer up a cash bet. He loves that shit.

You guys were the only guy with a drive line spun alternator and you didn't even make it past the first race. Everyone else finished that race with the same baby soft carrier bearing. Molested or not, you mod was the issue with your failure.


Obviously what works on a Can am doesn't work on a Polaris but Polaris cars are finishing races every time in large numbers.

 

[badassmav]

You guys were the only guy with a drive line spun alternator and you didn't even make it past the first race. Everyone else finished that race with the same baby soft carrier bearing. Molested or not, you mod was the issue with your failure.


Obviously what works on a Can am doesn't work on a Polaris but Polaris cars are finishing races every time in large numbers.

I'm not sure what failure you're talking about. The first race in Parker we started late, and were only allowed to complete 1 lap. The alternator was hardly used in the first 3 races, as they all were run in the daylight. I don't recall the alternator or driveshaft side lining us in any of the races I was involved in this year (Parker, San Felipe, Mint).
I do however know that Polaris made a physical change to the drive shaft layout in the 2016 models for reasons other than me not being satisfied in their design.

 

[george.felix]

I'm not sure what failure you're talking about. The first race in Parker we started late, and were only allowed to complete 1 lap. The alternator was hardly used in the first 3 races, as they all were run in the daylight. I don't recall the alternator or driveshaft side lining us in any of the races I was involved in this year (Parker, San Felipe, Mint).
I do however know that Polaris made a physical change to the drive shaft layout in the 2016 models for reasons other than me not being satisfied in their design.

On the subject of drive lines. The video shows the drive moving quite a bit. I'd imagine with these carriers that's restricted but the alignment is supposed to be improved. Your thoughts? Pics are of the proto type and production parts.

 

[badassmav]

View attachment 11971

On the subject of drive lines. The video shows the drive moving quite a bit. I'd imagine with these carriers that's restricted but the alignment is supposed to be improved. Your thoughts? Pics are of the proto type and production parts. View attachment 11970

It looks like the replacement bearing carrier in the image houses an aftermarket bearing in lieu of the stock OEM press on sleeve and ball bearing, eliminating a soft bushing all together, is this correct?
A 411 on the factory carrier bearing: I assume that Polaris used a "soft" carrier at that location to reduce, or eliminate drive line vibrations due to the extreme indifferent u-joint operating angles of the tranny output u-joint and the u-joint just forward of the carrier bearing. If I recall correctly, the rule of thumb when designing a drive line is that when power is transferred through a shaft via universal joints, any 2 opposing u-joints should be positioned within 1 1/2degrees of a median plane, or within 3 degrees maximum of one another. This is because when a working angle is applied to a conventional u-joint, the rotating velocity of the shaft to which they are attached changes 4 time per revolution (hence, the creation of constant velocity joints). This change in velocity is most likely inversely proportional to the working angle. If opposing joints do not share common working angles, the drive shafts that they are joining will be fighting each other to control the rpm of the drive line at 4 points in every revolution. The results of this condition would be a harmonic vibration of the drive line. Just a quick look at the XP's drive line reveals that the transmission output shaft is on a plane at least 10 degrees different than the shaft that it drives, which is a big design "no-no". It's my guess that without the cushy carrier bearing, a nasty vibration would be transmitted through the drive line, wreaking havoc on the output shafts, bearings, and seals of the transmission, as well as the front Hilliard/differential.

I had my hands full just trying to make each race, and never had the time to address the issue. So, if you feel a vibration in the floorboard of your car with the rigid carrier bearing installed, chances are the proposed replacement carrier bearing, in its current configuration, will not work.

 

[george.felix]

Are u referring to the drive line bring out of phase? Wouldn't just cutting the shaft and rewelding solve that problem ?

FYI we haven't had an issue with the driveline or carriers. We have two drive lines and both seem to be ok. I think one is actually phased correctly.