BITD weight and teardown

[apexin]

The weight difference between a 1.75" .120 wall cage and 1.75 .095 is only between 20-40 lbs depending on the cage. You could shed a little more running .065 but it's only another 20lbs or so. It's easy to determine .065 because I have yet to see a bender not stretch the material a little.

Are we talking race cage or dunner cage?

Look, Im not saying that weighing a car that has equal equipment on it against another is the end all be all of finding illegal tubing. Im just saying that we shouldnt crucify a guy that just tried to see if some guys were coming in way under the other cars and therefore might be doing something unsafe while looking for an advantage because we all know racers would never do that. Lets not turn this into a metallurgy seminar.

 

[M1028]

Here is a chart I found on Pirate4x4.

So based on these numbers if you built a UTV using 200 foot of 1.75" .095 tubing instead of .120 wall you would save 82lbs.

Chrome-Moly Tensile Stength = 90,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.120 1.51 0.61 55,303 $6.63 2.089 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 44,453 $6.59 1.679 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 39,119 $8.17 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 46,821 $6.01 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 37,738 $5.74 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 33,253 $5.51 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 38,339 $5.65 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 31,023 $5.44 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 27,386 $5.50 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 29,857 $5.54 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 24,308 $5.42 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 21,519 $5.39 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 17,183 $4.98 .6491 lb

DOM Tensile Stength = 70,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.125 1.50 0.64 44,668 $5.54 2.169 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 34,575 $5.36 1.596 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 30,426 $5.23 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 36,416 $5.18 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 29,352 $5.92 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 25,863 $5.61 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 29,819 $5.28 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 24,129 $5.00 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 21,300 $5.57 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 23,222 $5.00 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 18,906 $5.00 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 16,737 $5.00 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 13,365 $5.00 .6490 lb

HREW Tensile Stength = 40,000 psi
Diameter (in) Thickness (in) ID (in) Cross Sect. Area (in^2) Tensile Strength (lbs) Cost ($/ft) Weight (lb/ft)
1.75 0.120 1.51 0.61 24,579 $5.20 2.089 lb
1.75 0.095 1.56 0.49 19,757 $5.06 1.596 lb
1.75 0.083 1.58 0.43 17,386 $5.11 1.478 lb
1.50 0.120 1.26 0.52 20,809 $5.16 1.769 lb
1.50 0.095 1.31 0.42 16,772 $5.00 1.426 lb
1.50 0.083 1.33 0.37 14,779 $5.00 1.256 lb
1.25 0.120 1.01 0.43 17,039 $5.04 1.448 lb
1.25 0.095 1.06 0.34 13,788 $5.00 1.172 lb
1.25 0.083 1.08 0.30 12,172 $5.00 1.034 lb
1.00 0.120 0.76 0.33 13,270 $5.00 1.128 lb
1.00 0.095 0.81 0.27 10,804 $5.00 .9182 lb
1.00 0.083 0.83 0.24 9,564 $5.00 .8129 lb
1.00 0.065 0.87 0.19 7,637 $5.00 .6490 lb

200' is a lot for a utv. Normal is 60-90'

 

[M1028]

Are we talking race cage or dunner cage?

Look, Im not saying that weighing a car that has equal equipment on it against another is the end all be all of finding illegal tubing. Im just saying that we shouldnt crucify a guy that just tried to see if some guys were coming in way under the other cars and therefore might be doing something unsafe while looking for an advantage because we all know racers would never do that. Lets not turn this into a metallurgy seminar.

Race cage, the weights I gave where for 60-80' of tubing, I've built several and can not see how you could get much more in there.

 

[COGNITO]

My goal here is not to start a shit storm. Joey brought the scale story up in his recap so i felt i had to explain why i made the choice i did. So its Joeys fault

 

[shrive81]

so looking at the rule book and being that I am in a process of a build, the rules state that:

vehicle weight open cockpit closed cockpit

under 2000lbs 1.5" x .90" 1.5" x .90"
2000-2999 1.75" x .120" 1.5" x .120"
3000-3999 2" x .120 1.75" x .120"

I am building a XP4 chassis, so what should I use then since I wont know the final weight of the car?????

 

[apexin]

Have you ever seen a guy take all the dzues tabs, buttons, springs, nuts and bolts that are on their race car, put them in a bucket and weigh them? I have... there are guys who do everything they can to keep weight down in ways that others just ignore. Skid plate thickness, amount of aluminum panelling, types and amount of lights, wheel & tire combo, suspension construction, shock selection, etc etc etc etc... My point is, if a guy builds a car and it weighs hundreds of pounds less then he should be congratulated IMO and not just assumed to be cheating on tube wall thickness... to be honest, I don't even know what you are debating or defending anymore? And is there a racer that people are even concerned with in terms of tubing size? Cory told me he did this to keep racers on their toes, just like at LOORRS they would randomly one race test fuel, next race measure track width, etc. Mix it up so that the racers remain honest not knowing what they will check at tech next.

You first said that if a car is hundreds of pounds lighter then similar style cars then it needs to be inspected closer. Inspected by who? This isn't lucas oil, there is no WEIGHT rule.

Cory is doing the right thing at the Mint by bringing the proper tool to check the rule he is concerned with. But Cognito has a solid point, weighing a car will never determine tube wall thickness.. as similar as these cars look, none of them are built the same except for the Jagged X twin cars.

I made my point very clear. Weighing a car will show something. Your right, a car can weigh 900lbs and still be legal. Thats not the point. If you weigh all of them and one or two are much lighter than the others and seem to have the same amount of tubing and equipment, does that not tell you something? Then the person inspecting the car might want to check other things to see if the weight savings came legally. You can weigh your dzus buttons all day and use titanium fasteners, you will save about 10lbs.

You are right on one thing. Its to keep people from doing exactly what I am saying can be done. As more and more OEM's come into this style of racing, more and more $$ is spent and therefore more and more builders will be pushing the limit to win. The addition of the pro classes in SCORE, has upped the attention of the OEM's, and before you say Cory doesnt tech them, you need to know he does consult with the new owner of SCORE. Did you ever think that there is a second point to the weighing? How about a min. weight rule down the road?

 

[JoeyD23]

My goal here is not to start a shit storm. Joey brought the scale story up in his recap so i felt i had to explain why i made the choice i did. So its Joeys fault

hahahaha you started the shit show by not weighing your car! hahah

Seriously, I think what Cory was trying to do was just be creative and keep guys on their toes. I just think he used the wrong tool to do it with. But I'm not gonna knock him for doing his job. He is the guy, he does what he feels is the best, I know I don't want people telling me how to do my job. lol Next time just put your damn car on the scales and save us all the headache! lol I kid I kid...

 

[apexin]

so looking at the rule book and being that I am in a process of a build, the rules state that:

vehicle weight open cockpit closed cockpit

under 2000lbs 1.5" x .90" 1.5" x .90"
2000-2999 1.75" x .120" 1.5" x .120"
3000-3999 2" x .120 1.75" x .120"

I am building a XP4 chassis, so what should I use then since I wont know the final weight of the car?????

Cant tell ya, its a secret

You will be in the 1.5 X .90 category.

 

[M1028]

so looking at the rule book and being that I am in a process of a build, the rules state that:

vehicle weight open cockpit closed cockpit

under 2000lbs 1.5" x .90" 1.5" x .90"
2000-2999 1.75" x .120" 1.5" x .120"
3000-3999 2" x .120 1.75" x .120"

I am building a XP4 chassis, so what should I use then since I wont know the final weight of the car?????

We have had great luck with 1.75" .095.

 

[apexin]

My goal here is not to start a shit storm. Joey brought the scale story up in his recap so i felt i had to explain why i made the choice i did. So its Joeys fault

Not a shit storm, just opinions. Its all good and keep doing what you doing, it seems to be working.

 

[JoeyD23]

I made my point very clear. Weighing a car will show something. Your right, a car can weigh 900lbs and still be legal. Thats not the point. If you weigh all of them and one or two are much lighter than the others and seem to have the same amount of tubing and equipment, does that not tell you something? Then the person inspecting the car might want to check other things to see if the weight savings came legally. You can weigh your dzus buttons all day and use titanium fasteners, you will save about 10lbs.

You are right on one thing. Its to keep people from doing exactly what I am saying can be done. As more and more OEM's come into this style of racing, more and more $$ is spent and therefore more and more builders will be pushing the limit to win. The addition of the pro classes in SCORE, has upped the attention of the OEM's, and before you say Cory doesnt tech them, you need to know he does consult with the new owner of SCORE. Did you ever think that there is a second point to the weighing? How about a min. weight rule down the road?

Thanks for educating me on the UTV racing scene, I had no idea about score's pro class, or who this "new owner" is.. Whats an OEM?

#1 - Minimum weight rule would be stupid IMO, what does that prevent? This isn't lucas oil where you are gaining an UNFAIR advantage. Its a FAIR advantage to build a better, lighter car! These are NOT SPEC classes. Desert racing encourages build creativity, why limit that with a weight rule? Whats next, adding ballast to a car at the start line? Gonna make the co-dawg wear a lead vest or put sand bags in his lap? lol

#2 - lets say this whole weighing the car thing ended up showing that 1 car was 500lbs lighter then all the other cars. As the tech guy this makes you want to now dig deeper. You feel like the tubing is light, so how do you check it?

My point is, the scale is not the tool to test the tubing... You either x-ray it or break out the sawzall and while I am sure there was a sawzall in the pits the proper tool (x-ray) wasn't even on hand...

 

[COGNITO]

I made my point very clear. Weighing a car will show something. Your right, a car can weigh 900lbs and still be legal. Thats not the point. If you weigh all of them and one or two are much lighter than the others and seem to have the same amount of tubing and equipment, does that not tell you something? Then the person inspecting the car might want to check other things to see if the weight savings came legally. You can weigh your dzus buttons all day and use titanium fasteners, you will save about 10lbs.

You are right on one thing. Its to keep people from doing exactly what I am saying can be done. As more and more OEM's come into this style of racing, more and more $$ is spent and therefore more and more builders will be pushing the limit to win. The addition of the pro classes in SCORE, has upped the attention of the OEM's, and before you say Cory doesnt tech them, you need to know he does consult with the new owner of SCORE. Did you ever think that there is a second point to the weighing? How about a min. weight rule down the road?

You must understand the fact that the tech inspector IS THE COMPETITION!!!
Doesnt mean he gets to start peeling back the seat covers to see if the seat frame is aluminum or steel just because he wants to, or make someone take the head off the engine so he can measure bore and stroke and then tell the person 'yep you are legal just like you said, sorry to cost you all this extra money on putting it back together, for no reason'.

 

[COGNITO]

#1 - Minimum weight rule would be stupid IMO, what does that prevent? This isn't lucas oil where you are gaining an UNFAIR advantage. Its a FAIR advantage to build a better, lighter car! These are NOT SPEC classes. Desert racing encourages build creativity, why limit that with a weight rule? Whats next, adding ballast to a car at the start line? Gonna make the co-dawg wear a lead vest or put sand bags in his lap? lol

#2 - lets say this whole weighing the car thing ended up showing that 1 car was 500lbs lighter then all the other cars. As the tech guy this makes you want to now dig deeper. You feel like the tubing is light, so how do you check it?

My point is, the scale is not the tool to test the tubing... You either x-ray it or break out the sawzall and while I am sure there was a sawzall in the pits the proper tool (x-ray) wasn't even on hand...

X2!

 

[COGNITO]

So says the guy with "cognitomotorsports" in his email address.

When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Lets be honest with each other here. Nobody is looking at Cognito motorsports for illegal parts.

I feel that the tech inspector...i mean...'competition' is looking for an edge.....

 

[JoeyD23]

I feel that the tech inspector...i mean...'competition' is looking for an edge.....

Problem is, and we have had this discussion for 2-3 seasons now... until someone else steps up and can properly relieve Cory of the duty of tech inspection for UTV then this is the way it is.Cory has kept this class running, casey made it very clear to me a couple years back that no one is stepping up to be tech guy for UTV's. So it is what it is. Its frustrating to other racers as its a conflict of interest, but Cory is doing a job that no one else is stepping up to do. I am sure Cory would like nothing more then to be able to roll up to a race, roll his car through tech, bitch at the tech guy, then just go race.. lol

However, could you imagine if BJ was tech'ing other competitors TT's and he told Robby Gordon he wanted to weigh his truck? lol RG would tell him to go get f'd! lol

 

[facteryfmf]

Somewhere in the midst of all this argument, there was a comment made that a 4 seater has an advantage over the two seaters. May be true but there is also an advantage to Kigers car being 320 pounds lighter than Jaggeds also with the same motor?

 

[COGNITO]

Problem is, and we have had this discussion for 2-3 seasons now... until someone else steps up and can properly relieve Cory of the duty of tech inspection for UTV then this is the way it is.Cory has kept this class running, casey made it very clear to me a couple years back that no one is stepping up to be tech guy for UTV's. So it is what it is. Its frustrating to other racers as its a conflict of interest, but Cory is doing a job that no one else is stepping up to do. I am sure Cory would like nothing more then to be able to roll up to a race, roll his car through tech, bitch at the tech guy, then just go race.. lol

If no one in BITD staff is actively searching for an inspector, i doubt anyone is going to show up with a resume in hand looking for a job. With that being said if anyone is looking for a job and can read a rulebook and check off boxes on a tech sheet, and knows some logistics of a car or is easily trained, BITD may be hiring!!

However, could you imagine if BJ was tech'ing other competitors TT's and he told Robby Gordon he wanted to weigh his truck? lol RG would tell him to go get f'd! lol

No doubt!!

 

[BiggJim]

So says the guy with "cognitomotorsports" in his email address.

When one car is hundreds of pounds lighter than others of the same model with similar equipment, its a pretty good indication you need to look further. LOL

Lets be honest with each other here. Nobody is looking at Cognito motorsports for illegal parts.

Hundreds of pounds lighter? There was probably a 500 pound weight difference from the lightest to the heaviest car...but guess what...the team with the lightest car did a great job at keeping their race car light...could the heavier car been lighter.... ABSOULTLY.

As far as Im concerened unless this class goes to a spec class your competition/inspector has no business looking at your car weight, or you engine bore/stroke unless he wants to put the $500 protest fee up.

Now on to yet even another weight monster....what do you think a atv/utv tire weights compared to a light truck tire? With 5 tires on the car I can tell you its more than what using lighter tubing will save you...


Maybe you should bring your race car out to the next event and go racing....instead of bench racing.

 

[the stripping shop]

i didnt want to weigh my car either but i was told we had to. but cory reason was to maybe start a weight rule/ seperate class because of weight. all i asked was to post everybody weight so it is public so we dont have a pissing war.but he told me know it was for the utvra data. on the motor thing he does have the right to tear down anybody motor at the end of the race, that is a BITD rule when you have cc rule. Not to defend CORY but he totally could flip the scale thing. because he was checking tube size for weght of car 2000lbs needs 1 3/4, 2000lbs below 1 1/2 tubing.

 

[sanduras]

i didnt want to weigh my car either but i was told we had to. but cory reason was to maybe start a weight rule/ seperate class because of weight. all i asked was to post everybody weight so it is public so we dont have a pissing war.but he told me know it was for the utvra data. on the motor thing he does have the right to tear down anybody motor at the end of the race, that is a BITD rule when you have cc rule. Not to defend CORY but he totally could flip the scale thing. because he was checking tube size for weght of car 2000lbs needs 1 3/4, 2000lbs below 1 1/2 tubing.

are they weighing cars with driver and passenger, or car alone?