BITD Class Vote on turbos

[Ignore Amos]

Oh... btw.. its looks like Johnny Angel is racing a Turbo in V2R... sneaky old fart... love how hes always upsetting the apple cart..

I was one of the first victims of the Can Am Turbos being allowed to race in Pro.. and I race for Can Am..

We had just spent an enormous amount of time and money building what I thought was the ultimate Pro Class UTV.. and as we starting to race it.. the Turbo's were allowed, but only 2015's not 2014 which mine was.. so I turbo'd my car and HAVE to race Pro unlimited..so there was minimum of 70k++ and 6 months down the drain (sort of)

I have also been advocating for a committee run organization much like Joey and others have suggested..lots would say they would support it behind the scene but would never do any overt.. glad to see something I hope coming together.

 

[chill720]

And I was at the Parker Race and there was no "vote" only asked a question. Whatever it may be, I will still come to the races I can and have fun because I like the Desert vs. Woods. But something needs to be done like a true committee.

 

[JoeyD23]

Again as an interested party with no skin in the game:

Is it that hard to segregate the class into 2 with: Naturally Aspirated and Forced Induction classes? If you wanted one, the manufacturers still sell the non turbos... Correct?

It'd also be wise for you to also consider/discuss/decide on drivelines and tire sizes as it's not relevant now but it can/will be based on comment. Having raced in 16, 10, 12, TL and seeing updates, rule changes and allowances affect racers and turnouts: It seems dealing with this sooner than later could keep the class on track. Keep in mind a new build designed around 33's vs a current 30" tire car would also be a significant difference and can the current cars handle 33's? It seems axle/CV's, clutches, belts and drivelines are already at their limit?

Hopefully a majority rule of racers have a say as anytime special interests (or manufacturers) and/or a sanctioning body declares the rules, things seem to get whonkey... Example: Class 10 Aircooled, then watercooled, then Toys-then Honda (painful/costly), Ecotechs then FBW and now the new D.I. (Ecotechs did help the class): T.L. 2.2L to 2.4L, standard Chassis to Score tagged for 1 guy, existing rear end to fabbed rear end, 2.5 to 3.0 shocks: And the list goes on and that was builder/personally influenced and not manufacturer...

Great to see the convo and comments by racers!

It's not hard for BITD it's just pulling money out of one pocket and moving it to the other. But I think further adding or splitting classes sucks. But that's me. With that said it could be the right choice to add the Turbo only class and return the pro class back to a N/A class like it should have remained in the first place.

 

[jaggedx]

Many great points here, but racing has and always will have a group of of same racers in each class that will be battling for a win at each race. The others racers seem to battle for a finish. Money tends to help the top teams in each class no matter what the rules are. 1900 seems to be anyones race throughout the entire race.

Also we only seem to be worried about the release of the new Turbo Rzr? When the Can Am was introduced and allowed to race with us we unanimously voted to let it race pro production when asked at the first race of the year, Parker. Has it really changed changed the outcome of our races? I don't think it has, they still have their own problems and have one win to show this year in desert racing.

I agree with Bill on the subject about the manufactures supporting our racing and they want to see their new machines racing against a large field of racers. If we separate classes it would be unfortunate to race against 25 other racers rather than 50-60. I would much rather say i got 1st out of 50 than 1st out of 25. 1 class with 50-60 racers is in my book better than 3 classes with 15-20 in each.


Branden

Just for the record, Unanimous means everyone agreed. In fact the "vote" you refer to was anything but unanimous. Just sayin! I know that I am not the only one who said that the Can Am turbo should have gone into the unlimited class until at least the end of the season. If Polaris had been first in the turbo game I would have said the same thing.

 

[daddaw]

I have followed this issue for some time and to be honest this is the very matter that has kept me from proceeding with a UTV build. I do not want to build a car every year nor have a car that is obsolete the following year. There are great points to all sides to this matter. I've been around racing since the late 80's on a large team as a driver so I could be considered an "OLD FART". This class is something I want to do with my family but have reservations. I don't have skin in the game at this time but would like to give my 2 cents without offending anyone.

In my opinion the Pro production class should try to keep the car counts up as a main priority. Splitting the class should not happen if it can be avoided. The great thing about this class is the pure numbers at the races. I agree that racing 10-15 cars is not as fun as 40-50, better payout also. I can see this class adding 10-20 new cars per year if handled properly. Just ask yourself how many racers are on hold because of the rapid rule changes? I am sure there are quite a few.

Now as for the turbo issue I feel that turbos should be allowed as long as the 1000cc rule is enforced period. So, cars that were built & bought before the turbos came out, they should be allowed to put an aftermarket turbo on their car. This cost is much less than building a new car and most teams would be able to absorb this cost some time throughout the season. To me it is just like changing the suspension, clutches, shocks etc... so the true production car is already changed due to the aftermarket parts being installed. Again the 1000cc rule would apply, and as far as ECU this should be open, again with the 1000cc rule applying. The chassis rules would still apply using main frame rails, no changing pivot points, limit track width and wheel base as rules state now. As far as new rules those should be agreed to by the racers at the start of the season and should not be changed until the following season. If a manufacturer comes out with the next "widget" then those cars should be sent to the unlimited class until rules are agreed and changed by the racers for the next year. This way all this confusion each year would be put to rest.

One area I feel should be looked at is tire size. The max tire size should be bumped up to 33", just my opinion.

I hope everyone comes to an agreement to stop the rapid rule changes to this class during the season. I am looking forward to getting out there and mixing it up with some of you!

 

[Red Lands]

In my opinion changing the rules within race seasons, or rewriting the rules to accommodate whats best for the factory teams or the latest and greatest release by the manufactures will kill this class.

I appreciate the factory backed teams, I have huge respect for all you guys, and racing against you makes it even more fun, but who is going to want to throw 50K (or probably a lot more) plus 4 months of build time and a lot of hard work at a new race car only to race it once (if their lucky) and find out it just became obsolete. A new car every season is out of reach for most teams, Major updates every 6 months to stay competitive...not realistic.

The rules should stand as they are for an entire season at a minimum. The OEM mid season releases need to wait to race at least until the next season. A 2016 Car should not race until the 2016 Season.

The Pro turbo cars that started this season should be able to finish it. (or that would be changing the rules mid season). As for the guys who are building (or have already built) 2016 model year cars….. you have your set up for next year. Anything new and improved, released after the start of the current race season, should not race until the following season.

Competition and innovation by the OEMs have brought us a long way with UTVs. I wouldn't be interested in this class if we were still averaging 25mph. I would like to see the improvement and innovation continue to filter down to the start line, but it's got to be at a more reasonable pace. Otherwise the meat of this class—The Privateer—will find some place else to race or head back to the dunes.

If the new turbo Polaris motor and drive train are everything Polaris is touting it to be, any 2015 or older XP just became obsolete. Its not just the HP its the whole drive train. HP doesn’t win desert races but it helps….In this class stopping for a belt change can loose you the race, or having to back off the throttle on the dry lake bed to keep the belt temp down can loose you the race too. I think you may be able to get the new power train without the turbo? Hope so.

I really like the new rule (for the 2016 season). It allows a motor/drive train swap to the new and improved as long as it still fits the chassis. This breathes a little life back into our race program. The new turbo drive train will fit our car…..I imagine it will cost almost as much as another car to buy all the upgraded parts, and the fab to make it fit. Still its a lot less than a whole new build, but here's another thought…...

What happens in 6 months when Polaris or Can Am or whoever ups the HP another 20-30-40 or more HP. With a few minor updates to their turbo car the manufacture easily ups the power and momentarily wins the HP race for the next 3-6 months until the new Polaris, Can Am, Yamaha or whatever else with another 20-30-40 more HP shows up. This is awesome for them, but according to the rules as they are we can't modify the motor, ECU, Injectors, Turbo and so on with a production turbo motor…..so every 6 months you buy a new factory motor, wiring harness, ecu, throttle body, turbo, exhaust, injectors, and so on to match the latest and greatest? Good chance the factory guys get handed these parts the second they're available. Even if a privateer has the cash to buy the parts can they even get them fast enough to stay competitive?

Honestly the possibilities of the upgrade race start to look a little ridiculous.

Keep Model year equipment in the same race year, along with older equipment that still meets the current race years rules.

As far as turbos go…. I would vote any car not naturally aspirated be moved to the Unlimited class starting next season. Or make turbos legal for everyone and open up the ecu rule….honestly in my opinion that concept dilutes the idea of a Pro (Production) class….The unlimited class is already in place if you want a turbo you can have it. I'd say let Unlimited run up to 33'' tires too, lets grow the Unlimited Class along with the Pro Class.

It's been said before, but forced induction is a can of worms for the Pro Production Class. The majority of the cars in the class are N/A. All theses cars will only get more obsolete if the factory turbo cars are mixed in, and it will happen fast. In half a season factory turbo cars added 35% more power right off the showroom floor. They could easily add another 35% by the start of next season. 120 hp didn't sound that scary, 144….. worse but maybe we can still keep up…. 35% more =194 Hp…..a naturally aspirated car wont have a chance.

Put the factory turbos in the Unlimited class and let them rip...let racers find the limits of the factory turbo cars, lets see how fast the UTV class can go.

 

[chill720]

fyi like jagged said, it wasn't unanimous on our end at all either........

 

[the stripping shop]

Pretty sure unanimous everyone wants 33in tires but utvra didn't listen because they were more concerned about there factory turbo can am racing not unanimously.

 

[cocojoe]

It's the 2015 pro production season, you cant run a 2016 production car in the 2015 season, if allowed to do so, this sport is all bulls#$t. I for one know of more than half a dozen long time desert racing teams that are on the fence watching what will happen with this before they decide to add a UTV to their racing program. If he is allowed to race in the production class they are out

 

[acme]

As one of those "seasoned" guys Coco mentioned, considering a UTV and reading the last 5-6 posts I have a few questions/thoughts:

1) Turbo/non turbo seems the big question as they exist but most seem to be sticking their head in the sand re other forms of drivelines that will be coming at some point. Those drivelines w/wo the turbo will render the CVT belt drives obsolete. I suggest you current guys consider the possibility of other changes when writing your rules so as to keep the current livery competitive...

2) 30 vs 33" tires. Part A: In doing our due-diligence on the class it seems that belts, axle/cv's, and diffs account for a majority of the downtime and or issues during a race? What do you think will happen with driveline stress/shock when a 30" tire is replaced with a 33"? It would seem sponsored racers will be in a better position with parts availability & cost, plus they may have a better spares assortment at say a 500 miles race than the privateer may have, due to the cost of investment...

Part B: Now you'll also have teams with new builds or guys with the budget/support capable of doing their annual builds; designing a new car/package around 33" tires which might (will IMHO) create a disparity in vehicles. Weight/shocks, suspension components, tire clearance, travel, ground clearance could (should) all be used to create a package for a 33" car that a 6 mos old build cannot compete with.

33's sound okay for a new build but with 50 cars in the class currently built around 30's it should be considered. Roll a 33 next to a 30, it's not just the 1.5" on either side and it's much different than a class 10 going from a 33 to a 35"...

I have received a lot of input while considering a UTV and love that there are free thinkers like Reid and others, and know what his imagination might do with a no budget build on 33's... But we are not looking for a class that constantly creates opportunity for the cars to be obsolete every year where you need an unrestricted budget to race competitively. But that's our issue; I just wonder how many racers have that same concern?

Just more food for thought...

PS Thanks to the Suspended Fab guys and racers for letting me hang out and learn more about the class last weekend!

 

[tatum]

I understand and I do agree with you fully Justin. Heres my dilemma...... My current race car has roughly 4000 race miles on it and is in need of some either serious TLC or a new build. I literally cut my Turbo car apart last night hoping that it was going to replace my current race car. I have 15k in parts sitting here for a new build and i am at a standstill as of this morning. I for one don't want to race in the Unlimited class because i really enjoy racing in such a large class with all of you professional racers. To me that is what racing is all about, racing against the best, and having a chance to win against the best. So i am sitting here with a half cut apart Turbo car that i don't know what to do now. These rules need to be figured out asap so i know what direction i need to go. Ill build a new 1000 if thats what it will take to stay in the class that has the most entries........

Branden

Just get that turbo car built Branden and I will race which ever one you dont. Them Sims motorsports can go 1-2 or 1-1 depending on what they end up doing.

 

[NIKAL]

As one of those "seasoned" guys Coco mentioned, considering a UTV and reading the last 5-6 posts I have a few questions/thoughts:

1) Turbo/non turbo seems the big question as they exist but most seem to be sticking their head in the sand re other forms of drivelines that will be coming at some point. Those drivelines w/wo the turbo will render the CVT belt drives obsolete. I suggest you current guys consider the possibility of other changes when writing your rules so as to keep the current livery competitive...

2) 30 vs 33" tires. Part A: In doing our due-diligence on the class it seems that belts, axle/cv's, and diffs account for a majority of the downtime and or issues during a race? What do you think will happen with driveline stress/shock when a 30" tire is replaced with a 33"? It would seem sponsored racers will be in a better position with parts availability & cost, plus they may have a better spares assortment at say a 500 miles race than the privateer may have, due to the cost of investment...

Part B: Now you'll also have teams with new builds or guys with the budget/support capable of doing their annual builds; designing a new car/package around 33" tires which might (will IMHO) create a disparity in vehicles. Weight/shocks, suspension components, tire clearance, travel, ground clearance could (should) all be used to create a package for a 33" car that a 6 mos old build cannot compete with.

33's sound okay for a new build but with 50 cars in the class currently built around 30's it should be considered. Roll a 33 next to a 30, it's not just the 1.5" on either side and it's much different than a class 10 going from a 33 to a 35"...

I have received a lot of input while considering a UTV and love that there are free thinkers like Reid and others, and know what his imagination might do with a no budget build on 33's... But we are not looking for a class that constantly creates opportunity for the cars to be obsolete every year where you need an unrestricted budget to race competitively. But that's our issue; I just wonder how many racers have that same concern?

Just more food for thought...

PS Thanks to the Suspended Fab guys and racers for letting me hang out and learn more about the class last weekend!

I think your over analyzing the 33 inch tire size. I know of several guys with 1000's play cars and they are running 31 inch light truck tires in stock axles & clutching with no issues.

Being that you have to run stock pivot points, changing from a 30 to 33 is not going to be as big of a deal. Yes their would be shock tuning involved. But overall it should not be the cause of the have's & the have nots.

Class ten just made the jump from 33 to 35 inch tires. I have not heard of one single complaint or issues with converting an existing 10 car. Just gear changes and shock tuning.

 

[motive]

I find it interesting that a couple of months ago when Can Am announced their turbo that there was person after person saying that it should be allowed to run. The majority of those people were not and never will be racing BITD or SCORE. Now that it is here and we have to deal with the consequences, only racers or those deeply interested in the class are posting. IMHO allowing turbos in does nothing to make the racing more fair, interesting or helps out the manufactures. The average joe watching the Mint400 on TV gets a 30 second spot about the UTV class and resides that looks cool. He doesn't realize that it isn't the "flagship" model racing. He will still go down to the dealership and be sold on the turbo model by some slick talker in a bad suit.

Planned and played out right it could be a huge growth opportunity for both the 1900 and 2900 class. I think Rockstar girl saw the writing on the wall and made the class jump at a good time. Honestly it seems like a more promising class at the moment because the rules don't change on whims and product announcements. I'm waiting for the moment when there are cars in the 2900 class that have higher average speeds than the pro class. Hell, if I was building my own car, that is exactly what I would try to do.

 

[tatum]

I think your over analyzing the 33 inch tire size. I know of several guys with 1000's play cars and they are running 31 inch light truck tires in stock axles & clutching with no issues.

Being that you have to run stock pivot points, changing from a 30 to 33 is not going to be as big of a deal. Yes their would be shock tuning involved. But overall it should not be the cause of the have's & the have nots.

Class ten just made the jump from 33 to 35 inch tires. I have not heard of one single complaint or issues with converting an existing 10 car. Just gear changes and shock tuning.

A shock or shock mount change could net a little more travel.

 

[Markflexes]

Well said Joey. Most sports have a "competition committee" to do just what you are suggesting. I think it time the class evolves. Grateful to the leaders who have brought it thus far but time for progress and more good minds to have input. I do feel this committee or Board should be voted on by members and should include representation from all aspects of the sport. A minimum of 7 standing members would be needed to accomplish this in my opinion. One position on this Board / Committee should be reserved for a non competitor completely non biased person. This is how most professional committee's are made up. Good dialogue and hopefully some positive
action can come from it.

 

[Brian B]

I am all for turbo cars to go to unlimited. It makes sense

 

[COGNITO]

I just had a brief convo with Cory, trying to keep the majority of this class feel that things are fair. He just told me that he has been running this class for ten years and it has done nothing but grow, and whatever he decides the rules are, who ever doesn't like it then he has a box of tissues and they can go somewhere else to race. Unfortunately, if something doesn't change, this class at BITD will not be what we hope it could continue to be. And if SCORE follows the BITD rules then it may be tainted as well. Cory is trying to be a dictator and it just rubs me wrong.

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[COGNITO]

Cory says I am the only one who doesn't want the turbo cars in this class. I told him there are a slew of people who don't. He said I am full of it and that no one is calling him saying they don't want the turbo in this class except for me. Cory will not come on these forums, so people need to call him and tell their thoughts. He says if Polaris will make a speed limit increase, then he will allow all turbo cars to increase speed limiter. This is bad for all the non turbo cars, I am shaking my head.

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[george.felix]

I don't want turbos........that makes two. There are more. Apparently Bill Schueler's effort was just for show if that's true.

 

[COGNITO]

I don't want turbos

As much as you don't like Cognito, I am fighting for you and racers like you who don't have factory support. I urge you to contact Cory by phone.

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