BITD Class Vote on turbos

[SimsMotorsports]

Many great points here, but racing has and always will have a group of of same racers in each class that will be battling for a win at each race. The others racers seem to battle for a finish. Money tends to help the top teams in each class no matter what the rules are. 1900 seems to be anyones race throughout the entire race.

Also we only seem to be worried about the release of the new Turbo Rzr? When the Can Am was introduced and allowed to race with us we unanimously voted to let it race pro production when asked at the first race of the year, Parker. Has it really changed changed the outcome of our races? I don't think it has, they still have their own problems and have one win to show this year in desert racing.

I agree with Bill on the subject about the manufactures supporting our racing and they want to see their new machines racing against a large field of racers. If we separate classes it would be unfortunate to race against 25 other racers rather than 50-60. I would much rather say i got 1st out of 50 than 1st out of 25. 1 class with 50-60 racers is in my book better than 3 classes with 15-20 in each.


Branden

 

[george.felix]

I would like to chime in.

I would like all the 1900 class BITD and SCORE racers to think about this class, and its future which i think is in jeopardy. UTVs are evolving every time a new OEM lineup comes out. We need to slow some things down a little as far as the 1900 class goes for racing.

I am all about the new models coming out, for the recreation rider who is the backbone of the revenue of the OEM's. But for racing, the class needs to slow down a little so we don't have to build a new car every season to be competitive.

At tech last year, a question arose of whether or not the turbo cars should be able to race the 1900 pro class. I don't think that a short conversation about it, on the spot, is the way to make that decision. There are over 50 utv desert racers and i don't think many of them thought much about it before they answered, again we were all kind of put on the spot and not prepared, didn't have time to really think about it and discuss. Then all of a sudden there was a rule allowing them to join the class.

Maybe i am wrong, maybe everyone thought long and hard about it, but i didn't last year so i assume not many others did either.

Cognito is factory sponsored by Polaris, and no one here is in support of the turbo cars in the 1900 pro class, no matter what brand utv. I do not want 40 other racers to feel like the playing field is not fair because they cant build a new car each year. That might lead to the field thinning out, and racers not coming because the factory guys can always have the latest and greatest easier than the grassroots racer. If this happens, this class will start to go backwards.

If this class goes backwards, another series will pop up more tailored to utv only, and be organized and run well, and then there is just that many more races out there, but less car counts per series. Some people might like this, but i like to see 40 competitors out there battling, it mixes things up and you never know what could happen, plus there is more money in the pot! Or you never know, it could be the next big thing, but there is only so many weekends in the year and sometimes too much is a bad thing.

Desert racers please think about this subject. I dont want to see any one point anyone out really, i just want to see the class have a solid foundation, and i think right now it is a bit flimsy. I would like everyone involved in the class to have a vote on the future, so that any animosity cant be funneled down to one or a few people.

The turbo cars look to me like a pain in the ass as far as tech goes, because of the restrictions. This attention needs to be paid to the other 45 racers out there with true 1900 PRO cars, rather than 5 turbo cars who are going to need all of the attention to make sure they are playing by the rules, which still seem to be a little up in the air. Move the turbo cars to the unlimited class, then the rules get freed up and they require less attention as far as tech goes, i think everyone is happier in this situation and both classes can grow.

Just goes to show there is always some common ground if you wait long enough. Lol couldn't agree more. One thing I think I do understand but no one ever explained or probably ever will but I'll ask anyway. What is UTVRA really?

 

[JoeyD23]

Here would be my 2 cents and suggestion:

At 2016 Parker BWDC: A 1900 class COMMITTEE with representatives competing from each of the major OEM brands (minimum of 2 brands and 5 reps) will be voted in by the entire 1900 class to decide and settle future class rules, structure and solve / answer technical debate. One singular class representative / spokesman who will address and speak on behalf of COMMITTEE to also be voted in / named (said person does not carry any additional authority).

Voted in representatives will sit on COMMITTEE for a minimum of 2 seasons, maximum of 5, unless voted out or back in by class or removed by him/her self.

Entire 1900 Class to vote on and approve COMMITTEE representatives and class spokesman every 2 seasons.

The 1900 class COMMITTEE meeting takes place every year, 2 months prior to start of the next racing season. Rules and structure decided at meeting remain in place through the completion of the following season.

1900 class COMMITTEE to then review rules every year at the same time to make adjustments to current rule structures. Any and all changes would be put into writing and then directly emailed to each 1900 class competitor and also announced verbally prior to start of the final race of the BITD race season. (Updated rule book also can be posted here and on other message boards)

For 2016: Turbos go to unlimited class through the end of 2016 season. Class COMMITTEE then votes to re-asses class structure at year end COMMITTEE meeting.

Any new model (released mid-season or post COMMITTEE rules meeting) that conflicts with current rules or class structure goes to unlimited class until end of season 1900 class COMMITTEE meeting.

For 2016: Any current Can-Am Maverick 1000 or XP1000 platform can legally change to current 2016 FACTORY turbo engine packages (must then race in unlimited and abide by all other class rules)

If BITD does not take on technical inspection, COMMITTEE to vote in appropriate UTV technical inspector who is NOT a class competitor and has no financial ties to any particular brand of vehicle competing. (technical inspection fees may be initiated to cover costs of said person)

COMMITTEE Objective:
To maintain class growth, competitiveness and to provide structure to an ever evolving race class.
To better monitor and solve class concerns.
To provide a fair and balanced method of instituting rules and regulation while avoiding any conflict of interest or perceived favoritism towards any one racer or brand of vehicle.




To me this seems very simple. Then again, maybe I am coming out of left field and you guys prefer the way things currently are. I thought I made sense about the turbos before and was ignored so this could be received the same way but I figured I would toss this out there.

And to just add, this is no way a dig at Cory or the work he has done and continues to do. He could easily fit into this plan above as a representative and even as a class spokesman. But I think the class has outgrown the UTVRA. And I do say that with all due respect.

See you guys at V2R.

 

[NIKAL]

As many know I have been vocal about the direction I see this class going, as I've seen other classes go down this same path and the outcome was not favorable to longevity of the class. I even wrote a thread on the "State of the UTV class". I also have been a huge supporter or the UTV class, so much so that I have got into heated debates on RDC defending the class.

Because of my racing history I've had several teams on here contact me for my opinion or advice. I've shared some of my ideas with the RedLand Racing guys on their new car and even went out and helped them at a race.

But just recently I had someone who is interested in coming out of racing retirement talk to me. They would like to get back into racing and the UTV class has interested him with the large amount of entry's. Knowing his racing history I know he doesnt race half ass and their past buggy's & trucks have been top of the line. Bottom line he would like me to build the whole program, manage it and split the drivers seat. Cost to me was going to be mininamal, but time would not be.

I shared my concerns with getting into the 1900 class right now. Sent them links to a few threads on here. We talked about some of the other classes that back in the day were run by Manufacture support and how they ran the class not the racers, and where they are today. I told him until thie current group of racers gets the class Organized & Structured with some sort of committee, and a better handle on the rules to protect the future of the class and investments made. That I would not spend a dime building a UTV team. I think there is way to much advancement coming in the next month, six months & year that anything built today is going the be worth pennies on the dollar by next August. That's Sad!

To be 100% honest I feel sorry for the RedLands guys as they are so close to finishing the most detailed, advanced designed UTV and its going to obsolete, Wyane Matlock has one If not the nicest UTV'a built and it will be obsolete by next year the way the manufactures are advancing the class.

The guy I'm talking with does not want to race a 1600 as he wants a better ride and is to old go get beat up and race the young bucks. He does not want to get back into class 10 as its faster and a bit more money then he wants to spend. So the UTV sounded like the perfect class. It's hard to believe I sold someone and myself out of a race car, but that's what I did. I suggested we wait and see what next year looks like and if the racers can get a handle of the class, then we can look to build the most bad ass car I can build.

So as its been said that I have no Dog in the fight, and it looks like I still have no dog and won't for quite a while. Maybe NORRA is in the future?

 

[COGNITO]

Many great points here, but racing has and always will have a group of of same racers in each class that will be battling for a win at each race. The others racers seem to battle for a finish. Money tends to help the top teams in each class no matter what the rules are. 1900 seems to be anyones race throughout the entire race.

Also we only seem to be worried about the release of the new Turbo Rzr? When the Can Am was introduced and allowed to race with us we unanimously voted to let it race pro production when asked at the first race of the year, Parker. Has it really changed changed the outcome of our races? I don't think it has, they still have their own problems and have one win to show this year in desert racing.

I agree with Bill on the subject about the manufactures supporting our racing and they want to see their new machines racing against a large field of racers. If we separate classes it would be unfortunate to race against 25 other racers rather than 50-60. I would much rather say i got 1st out of 50 than 1st out of 25. 1 class with 50-60 racers is in my book better than 3 classes with 15-20 in each.


Branden

Brandon, I think all the factory teams are not worried about racing against the turbo cars. We are not the meat and potatoes of this class tho. There are definitely a group that are usually leading these races, but if they were racing in turbo cars, then the meat and potatoes of the class might disappear and then you will be left with 12 cars per class rather than 25. If turbo cars get to stay in the current pro utv class, there will be less cars in 2016 and 2017 will bomb. Then all we will have is the factory guys racing each other, that is what I am trying to prevent.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[racer570]

If the class keeps trying to change the rules for each new machine that comes out, it is doomed. Changing the rules to allow for the new turbo cars to enter the Pro 1900 class, just ostracized 90% of the class. There was never a "vote", by the racers, to allow the turbo cars to enter, only a conversation at tech.

What I truly don't understand is why certain people think the rules MUST be changed just because a new model is released. I understand that the manufactures spend money with BITD to show their machines, but this is still BITD's class, and not subject to the manufacture's whims.

I have raced all my life and understand one thing about racing and racers. If the rules change constantly for one reason or another, the racers WILL NOT support it, as can be seen by the comments by several here. If they are consistent and fair, then they will stay. Brandon said that he does not want to race against 15-25 cars, but what do you think is going to happen to the class when only the factory guys have turbo cars.

 

[SixGunMatt]

Totally agree with the stability of the other limited classes, There is definitely an advantage with regard to car longevity. However, one of the unique aspects of the UTV class is that it is driven very powerfully by the OEM's
who continue to build better and faster vehicles each model year in their race for market supremacy. this is the biggest reason for the growth of the class. five years ago the idea of racing a rhino through the desert averaging just over 25 MPH was not appealing to many but the staggering improvements in the vehicles have opened up a huge opportunity for many who could probably not race otherwise. The other limited classes are stable, yes but they are also somewhat stagnant. The cars don't really change much nor does the number of entries.
I think we can definitely come up with a way to keep this class growing and still create some longevity for the racers who are already vested.

I believe that these OEMs can continue to race for market supremacy without it affecting the rules every year. How many UTV teams exist that race on a fairly consistent basis? Now, how many vehicles are these companies selling on an annual basis? My point? Although racing is a big part of the marketing for these companies (tv footage, photos, you tube videos, bragging rights for podium positions, etc.), I know it's not their primary source of marketing. I know that I bought my first RZR not because I saw race teams winning podiums, but because I saw how much fun they were in the desert.

I don't think proposing a locking of rules for a couple years is going to cause this class to go stagnant. Especially when there is a unlimited class where all of these vehicles can run. My personal opinion, if you want the class to go stagnant, just keep doing what we're doing; allowing every new model to run whenever they hit the market. As noted by a few above and I am sure several others who do not participate in this forum, they aren't willing to play this game for the long run.

Additionally, 25 mph doesn't seem appealing at all, I agree. But we have been away from that for quite some time now.

 

[SimsMotorsports]

I understand and I do agree with you fully Justin. Heres my dilemma...... My current race car has roughly 4000 race miles on it and is in need of some either serious TLC or a new build. I literally cut my Turbo car apart last night hoping that it was going to replace my current race car. I have 15k in parts sitting here for a new build and i am at a standstill as of this morning. I for one don't want to race in the Unlimited class because i really enjoy racing in such a large class with all of you professional racers. To me that is what racing is all about, racing against the best, and having a chance to win against the best. So i am sitting here with a half cut apart Turbo car that i don't know what to do now. These rules need to be figured out asap so i know what direction i need to go. Ill build a new 1000 if thats what it will take to stay in the class that has the most entries........

Branden

 

[FullTiltLunatic]

4000 miles and you need a new build or some serious TLC, shouldnt be too hard with factory backing and major sponsors such as your car has. Realize that there are other racers with 4k miles, but no factory support, no major sponsors that want to race also. But they don't have a free turbo car to start with. The manufacturers can't drive the racing in this. They are in to big of a pissing contest to let them dictate the race series with their new models. We're on the verge of killing UTV racing if they start allowing new models to come out with turbos and just jump right into the same class as current models and n/a cars.

 

[racer570]

I understand exactly what you are feeling Branden. I bought the 1922 1k car and have it in 1000 pieces waiting for the rules to be decided once and for all, so that I can decide what to do with this car. I really feel the pain for the new cars that was built just a month or two ago. They are mostly locked into their combination.

 

[the stripping shop]

What if you came up with a class champion or UTV world champion for BITD instead of pro class. To make manufacture happy and racers happy. Ex 1000 class na, turbo class, unlimited class with rule must be a utv to start with, Were you finish in your class goes into class championship/world championship point system so everyone is available to win. Maybe extra points for fastest time or lap or for wins in a row, just ex. You are racing your class and for overall championship. 3 champions and 1 overall champion. Rules can be set for 1000 na class for 1 year. Turbo class can have its rules, I think turbo should be open but if you want the turbo to be regulated then standard restrictor plate across the board eliminates ecu crap, not fair if Polaris system runs 8psi and can am runs 3psi. Unlimited class has to be utv chassis and 1200cc below lets see who will jump head first into and plus covers any new manufacture coming into sport. You have to keep racer coming and staying in BITD.

 

[dnf736]

Well am I glad I didn't go crazy with the sawzall on our turbo XP just yet...guess we'll just wait and see which way the wind blows on this one before build it.
I dont know enough about the rulebook or history of the class (in desert) to have an opinion but why let that stop me.

Class names, provided its split up,
Pro UTV,
Pro or Production Turbo,
UnLimited.

The turbo cars being produced are production models, the class name should reflect that on some level as they are not true unlimited builds. Call them something other than Pro might be insulting on to the manufacturers. I think everyone can agree no one wants that.

Also, a UTV only series might not be a bad thing. Look at the turn out from the UTVWC?
Pro UTV could be the premier class, supporting classes include Pro Turbo, UnLimited, Production 1000, quads.

Top billing for UTV instead of being that GD golfkart that was in someones way.

Transmissions, belt or gear? I though I saw someone mention that earlier.

Good luck to everyone this weekend.

 

[COGNITO]

In the case of Cognito, Polaris is not pushing us to race the XPTURBO. They have asked us what we think, but they have not steered us in that direction. I cant speak for the other Polaris factory teams.

My point is that i do not see Polaris trying to grab the wheel of the rules or the direction of racing. I have no idea if CanAm is trying to or not.

 

[rupert14]

It's good to see that such a large group of racers, supported by so many manufacturers, are having an open and realistic discussion about the future of the class. I am staying out of this one but compliment all for the open participation, including the UTVRA and Jagged with the upcoming meeting. Well done.....

 

[SimsMotorsports]

I really don't have a problem with it turbos going to unlimited and N/A cars staying in Pro Production. My problem is that I was told I would be able to race this year and 2016 in the Pro Production 1000 class. I've already had my Turbo engine sealed as well as my ECU and Injectors by the BITD tech inspector. I've got a pile of parts sitting here that do me no good as well. I basically am just needing to know the rules so that I can conform with them. I'm not trying to bend rules or make the class unfair I was just working on what I was told was in to do.

 

[staggs]

I really don't have a problem with it turbos going to unlimited and N/A cars staying in Pro Production. My problem is that I was told I would be able to race this year and 2016 in the Pro Production 1000 class. I've already had my Turbo engine sealed as well as my ECU and Injectors by the BITD tech inspector. I've got a pile of parts sitting here that do me no good as well. I basically am just needing to know the rules so that I can conform with them. I'm not trying to bend rules or make the class unfair I was just working on what I was told was in to do.

I agree Brandon we need to have solution to this and something set in stone, and it needs to be resolved quickly so we can all start planning for 2016. I also thing its a big issue on how the rules change so frequently and that needs to be resolved and stopped. A rule book should stay the same for a minimum of a whole season. I dont want to upgrade to the new turbo setup if the rules will change and I think the idea of leaving the Pro Production class as is and creating a new class for turbos or moving them to unlimited is the best, fastest and easiest solution to this issue as many have stated. Joey D also has a good plan with the committee etc.

 

[dnf736]

I just got off the phone with Art Sevedra, tech director for SCORE. He wants SCORE and BITD UTV rules to be on the same page.

He will be at V2R helping with tech and would like to attend the UTV specific drivers meeting, will someone please make sure he is informed of when and where so he can be present?

To me, this seems like it would help get everyone on the same page.

 

[staggs]

I just got off the phone with Art Sevedra, tech director for SCORE. He wants SCORE and BITD UTV rules to be on the same page.

He will be at V2R helping with tech and would like to attend the UTV specific drivers meeting, will someone please make sure he is informed of when and where so he can be present?

To me, this seems like it would help get everyone on the same page.

This is good , I agree all the rules should be the same across the board

 

[NIKAL]

Think about it like this. We are in the middle of a racing season with points awarded to teams. With changing or allowing a new model or engine to be raced in any class ultimately effects the current and future point standings for this season.

Ultimately allowing or changing the rules can and will effect someones point standing, and could effect who the Champion is. That is not good for any sport or class and will give the prospective that the 1900 class is being run or pocket lined by the manufactures. Give the class a WWE feel to it!

Because the Can Am Turbo is legal in Pro Production for 2015, I cant see how you cant allow the Polaris Turbo to not be? I think 2015 might have an Asterisk next to it.

I'm telling you the next year is going to really show the future of the 1900 class and how it might survive, or will it burst like some other classes I have mentioned?

BTW I also think a class committee needs to have more then just racers on it, as a racer it going to be partial to what is best for him at the time. CART had this very issues when they allowed the racers or inmates to run the asylum.

 

[acme]

Again as an interested party with no skin in the game:

Is it that hard to segregate the class into 2 with: Naturally Aspirated and Forced Induction classes? If you wanted one, the manufacturers still sell the non turbos... Correct?

It'd also be wise for you to also consider/discuss/decide on drivelines and tire sizes as it's not relevant now but it can/will be based on comment. Having raced in 16, 10, 12, TL and seeing updates, rule changes and allowances affect racers and turnouts: It seems dealing with this sooner than later could keep the class on track. Keep in mind a new build designed around 33's vs a current 30" tire car would also be a significant difference and can the current cars handle 33's? It seems axle/CV's, clutches, belts and drivelines are already at their limit?

Hopefully a majority rule of racers have a say as anytime special interests (or manufacturers) and/or a sanctioning body declares the rules, things seem to get whonkey... Example: Class 10 Aircooled, then watercooled, then Toys-then Honda (painful/costly), Ecotechs then FBW and now the new D.I. (Ecotechs did help the class): T.L. 2.2L to 2.4L, standard Chassis to Score tagged for 1 guy, existing rear end to fabbed rear end, 2.5 to 3.0 shocks: And the list goes on and that was builder/personally influenced and not manufacturer...

Great to see the convo and comments by racers!