BITD Class Vote on turbos

[Johnny]

I thought there was 7 Turbo Cars at the V2R ?? you guys are crazy to think a 1000 or for that matter a built 900 wont win a race ... I thought we had a 900 podium the UTV world championship ? I thought we had a built 1000 win first at V2R ? I can tell you If you took the top ten racers and made them stay with 1000s and gave the bottom 10 racers turbo cars the top ten would still most likely be on the top .. its not all about the motor Ive raced a stock 1000 motor from the start !! and lead 98% of V2R maybe its time for the 1000 NA guys to Visit Alba or Sparks or Queen and get some more horse power .. but even then Horsepower alone will not win any race ..

how bad do you wana win ?
Chase Trucks
Spare Parts
Pit crew that is on it ?
Suspension that is Dialed ?
Practice ?
Prep ?
Plan ?
Money Time dedication ?
and can you really drive in the top of the class ?

its funny but when I started racing I had multiple people tell me I was driving my car way to hard and to fast and I needed to slow down or i would never finish a race and in the last 18 months Ive seen alot or teams step it up big time in the way to hard and to fast department ..


I think polaris is dominating in both classes right now

 

[george.felix]

I absolutely agree any car can win with the right driver and team. But over the course of the season the turbo will always have the edge if the advantage is used right. Why I said it will be a handicapped car......everything being equal the NA car has to be more skilled and crewed etc. Keep in mind the 4 seat turbo raises the bar a little higher than the two seater u raced. I have a question since you raced both. Do u think you could have made up the time you did at V2R in your 4 seater? Serious question......you would know best.

 

[Johnny]

You know I had never driven a 4 seater until the baja 1000 last year and I still love the quick handling and light weight of the 2 seat machine ..

 

[george.felix]

You know I had never driven a 4 seater until the baja 1000 last year and I still love the quick handling and light weight of the 2 seat machine ..

That was good. I'll take that to mean the turbo helped as did the quick handling. Lol

 

[badassmav]

Johnny, you are 100 % correct. I don't care how fast or reliable a turbo schmurbo is. If it is not driven by a driver with the experience to consistently push it to the limit, it's all for naught. The people who told you that if you continued driving as hard and as fast as you did that you'd never finish a race, are the same people who would never finish a race by driving that fast and that hard.

There has been a few quality additions to this years driver roster, but IMHO, one hand is all it takes to count the number of drivers in your class that can;
1) Understand the limits of their car, and
2) Possess the ability to race it there for prolonged periods of time w/out making costly errors.

I can safely say that our championship last year was won by racing the in the slowest (top speed, and acceleration), and one of the least reliable (belt life) cars in the entire class! If it went 65 mph, there was a tailwind, and to see 70 would mean that we were on asphalt (with the tailwind!). We couldn't sustain 65 mph for more than 10 or 15 minutes without blowing a belt. We replaced from1-3 belts each and every race, at 25 minutes per change. Every car we raced against had the leisure of blowing by us on the flat, straight, and/or smooth surfaces at some point or other. Our championship was mostly realized through driver ability, finishing every mile of every race, and the baddest suspension in the class. Period. Marc's knowledge of the Baja peninsula was a bonus, but in no way was it the leading factor in our success. He always complained that he was bored driving the Monster Mav. It couldn't get him into any trouble that he couldn't drive out of. It didn't excite him. 2 seasons of racing (13 races or so), and the car has never been rolled, or even on it's side. How many teams can make that claim?
For any driver that disagrees with what I am posting here, I invite you to strap yourself into your co-dawg's seat, and let Marc take you for an "E"-ticket ride in your car, or ask to take a ride in his. Be it on mountainous, rallye type roads, or rough pole line roads like Zoo road or the like, he'll dance over the whoops at 50-60 miles an hour just feet away from telephone poles all day, or comfortably hang the rear end out just inches from a steep drop off, driving at full opposite lock, while steering with the throttle, where most other drivers are on the brakes, and the penalty for failure could be fatal.
A good rule of thumb is that if your car excites you, and you're racing a UTV, you probably are not driving it at its limit, rather it is driving you to your limit. A properly designed and set up N/A car could easily win a championship next season, with the right driver , and a decent (not top notch) pit crew. The fact that the finishing times are always so close together, only says that everybody is experiencing down time. Cognito won V2R, and it's my guess that they had at least 20 minutes of down time (although I guarantee Sheakley will correct me if I over-estimated).

The bottom line is that in the Pro 1900 class, there is still a lot of room for improvement, to the cars and the drivers. Do you all think it's just dumb luck that after only a partial season of racing experience, that Moneybags is leading the points race in the most competitive series the UTV's race in? It's not like JX or the Murray's quit spending money. Yeah, he's throwing a bunch of money at it, but put an average driver behind the wheel of the UTV Inc. car, and I guarantee you it wont be leading the points. Right now, or later in the season for that matter.

 

[george.felix]

So what your saying is Bubba Stewart would kick most peoples ass on a 125. But he's racing the top pro guys on a 450 because a 450 will roll over a 125 and he's not racing most people he's racing the other top pros and would have his ass handed to him on a 125. Lol Your argument iin a perfect world argument that with a less capable machine you can still overcome if your that much better than the rest. I agree and Can Am was a good example to make that point. Lol Jk

So are you saying that it doesn't matter if you have the best equipment that it's not really an advantage everything else being equal those factors that u pointed out ? Nobody believes that or they wouldn't be building turbos. But I get your point it's not everything or a guarantee.

And yes I think Johnny is just dumb luck. I'd like to drive his car at the next race then we will know for certain...... Lol

 

[COGNITO]

If you guys have questions or concerns about the turbos running in the Pro production class why don't you give Corey a call. I spoke with him yesterday for about a half an hour and he was able to answer pretty much all of my questions. as of 5 o'clock yesterday he said that he has only had two phone calls from people that do not want the turbos in the Pro production class. I for one am excited about the future of UTV racing and the new cars. Just think about it, Polaris and Can AM have turbos along with NA cars. Yamaha is coming out with a triple and a 5 speed. Arctic Cat is coming to the game with something of their own version. within the next year and a half we will have Honda in the game as well. all of these manufacturers are doing something a little different. it is better to have 5 manufactures fighting for supremacy in the same class as opposed to making a class for each car. With 5 manufactures all fighting to be the top dog it is a very exciting time to be a racer.

I talked to Cory on Friday and he told me he had 5 calls about it on his way home from v2r

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[COGNITO]

Here's a crazy thought....instead of speculating on what the mfg will or won't do has it occurred to anyone to just ask? Its unlikely Jagged and Cognito who both have a lot if skin in the game decided on their own the turbo belonged in unlimited. I'm just asking cuz it would throw cold water on this subject one way or another. My guess is Polaris would love to dominate in both classes instead of just one. Not rocket science if you think like a business person. Two leading products is better than competing against yourself for one.

My thoughts on the turbo class were not influenced by anyone at Polaris

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[COGNITO]

Johnny, you are 100 % correct. I don't care how fast or reliable a turbo schmurbo is. If it is not driven by a driver with the experience to consistently push it to the limit, it's all for naught. The people who told you that if you continued driving as hard and as fast as you did that you'd never finish a race, are the same people who would never finish a race by driving that fast and that hard.

There has been a few quality additions to this years driver roster, but IMHO, one hand is all it takes to count the number of drivers in your class that can;
1) Understand the limits of their car, and
2) Possess the ability to race it there for prolonged periods of time w/out making costly errors.

I can safely say that our championship last year was won by racing the in the slowest (top speed, and acceleration), and one of the least reliable (belt life) cars in the entire class! If it went 65 mph, there was a tailwind, and to see 70 would mean that we were on asphalt (with the tailwind!). We couldn't sustain 65 mph for more than 10 or 15 minutes without blowing a belt. We replaced from1-3 belts each and every race, at 25 minutes per change. Every car we raced against had the leisure of blowing by us on the flat, straight, and/or smooth surfaces at some point or other. Our championship was mostly realized through driver ability, finishing every mile of every race, and the baddest suspension in the class. Period. Marc's knowledge of the Baja peninsula was a bonus, but in no way was it the leading factor in our success. He always complained that he was bored driving the Monster Mav. It couldn't get him into any trouble that he couldn't drive out of. It didn't excite him. 2 seasons of racing (13 races or so), and the car has never been rolled, or even on it's side. How many teams can make that claim?
For any driver that disagrees with what I am posting here, I invite you to strap yourself into your co-dawg's seat, and let Marc take you for an "E"-ticket ride in your car, or ask to take a ride in his. Be it on mountainous, rallye type roads, or rough pole line roads like Zoo road or the like, he'll dance over the whoops at 50-60 miles an hour just feet away from telephone poles all day, or comfortably hang the rear end out just inches from a steep drop off, driving at full opposite lock, while steering with the throttle, where most other drivers are on the brakes, and the penalty for failure could be fatal.
A good rule of thumb is that if your car excites you, and you're racing a UTV, you probably are not driving it at its limit, rather it is driving you to your limit. A properly designed and set up N/A car could easily win a championship next season, with the right driver , and a decent (not top notch) pit crew. The fact that the finishing times are always so close together, only says that everybody is experiencing down time. Cognito won V2R, and it's my guess that they had at least 20 minutes of down time (although I guarantee Sheakley will correct me if I over-estimated).

The bottom line is that in the Pro 1900 class, there is still a lot of room for improvement, to the cars and the drivers. Do you all think it's just dumb luck that after only a partial season of racing experience, that Moneybags is leading the points race in the most competitive series the UTV's race in? It's not like JX or the Murray's quit spending money. Yeah, he's throwing a bunch of money at it, but put an average driver behind the wheel of the UTV Inc. car, and I guarantee you it wont be leading the points. Right now, or later in the season for that matter.

We lost 20 minutes with the skid plate ordeal, 40 minutes with the tangle and steering rack issue.

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[Sport10]

Nice post Johnny...You are so correct! I have told several the same...NOT all is motor!

 

[badassmav]

I don't really follow motocross too closely, so you lost me on the Bubba Stewart thing. I wasn't saying that having the best equipment is not an advantage. Obviously, the better the equipment, the better chance any driver will have to finish higher in the standings. My message is that a top tier driver in an average car will beat out a lesser experienced driver in a top notch/ more powerful car more often than not. I feel this is largely due to the fact that the better driver can take far more risks, with less consequences than the lesser experienced driver can. The Badassmav has never dnf'd a race, nor needed repairs during a race, due to driver error by hitting a washout, or nerfing someone causing mutual damage to our vehicle. He assesses things more accurately because he is more experienced, and when the car becomes upset or out of shape, it is never out of his control because he's been in far hairier situations at much higher speeds. He can drive faster and harder for a longer period of time because he is far better than the car is fast.

In short, I agree with Johnny on his" top10 drivers can win in a non turbo car vs. lesser drivers in turbo cars" analogy. In fairness, will add that on a course like San Felipe, a lesser driver in a reliable turbo charged Polaris would give Marc a run for his money driving last years BAM. This is simply due to the acceleration advantage the Turbo has, and the urgency to get back up to speed on a course as short rough as SF (not to mention the Mav weighing in at over 2,350 pounds, and being propelled by a bone stock motor. Nearly 400 pounds heavier than most of the top cars, based on the weight claims teams were throwing around last year.).

You can't be serious about Johnny. You really attribute his early success in off road racing to dumb luck? As handicapped as our Maverick was last year, do you then think that we too benefited from dumb luck? Unlike the TT class where any of the top drivers can get into a competitors vehicle and net similar results as the original driver, I don't feel the same scenario would play out in the 1900 class. Again, the drivers have so much room for improvement in the Pro 1900 UTV class, that the cars are yet to be the biggest piece in the puzzle.

Case in point: I used to race off road in the early to mid 80's. Driven and rode in everything from challenger cars, to class 8 trucks. I'm no slouch, but when I go out testing with Marc, there is no way possible that I can drive near as fast as he does without taking extreme risks. It would scare the shit out of me if I drove that fast, whereas when I'm riding with Marc, the control he has over the vehicle is obvious, and I don't even pucker up when he bounces over offset 24" whoops just inches away from telephone poles. Now, I'm not sure how close Johnny's abilities are to Marc's, but he's only 2 years into racing. Give him time, and then call it luck. In contrast, Marc has been racing competitively, and winning, since he was 5 years old.

 

[badassmav]

We lost 20 minutes with the skid plate ordeal, 40 minutes with the tangle and steering rack issue.

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Thanks for the info, Justin. Well, there you go. Lost an hour, and still was separated by just minutes at the end of 500+ miles. Like I said, everybody is having problems at some point. Now, compare that to the TT class. No way can a driver experience an hour of down time and still be in the running for even a podium finish. It is because they race at a far higher level than most, and when skills and equipment are that equally matched, there's little if any margin for error.

 

[JoeyD23]

Wayne you don't need to create a new class for each new vehicle. Separating Forced Induction from Naturally Aspirated is done in every major form of motorsport.

Let the forced induction cars play in Unlimited and leave naturally aspirated to race amongst each other for their own championship. Everyone can compete for an overall victory. OEMs remain happy and those with current NA vehicles don't have to feel outclassed. Let's face it. These turbos will and are already are faster. Sure, HP isn't everything but it means a lot. Just ask everyone who has watched S3 walk right by them on the track.

 

[baja specialist]

I see your point. But it seems like a "I want a trophy to class". It's kind of like desert racing for dirt bikes. They have so many classe

Wayne you don't need to create a new class for each new vehicle. Separating Forced Induction from Naturally Aspirated is done in every major form of motorsport.

Let the forced induction cars play in Unlimited and leave naturally aspirated to race amongst each other for their own championship. Everyone can compete for an overall victory. OEMs remain happy and those with current NA vehicles don't have to feel outclassed. Let's face it. These turbos will and are already are faster. Sure, HP isn't everything but it means a lot. Just ask everyone who has watched S3 walk right by them on the track.

I see your point and I agree with most of it. The only thing I see wrong is the Unlimited part. That definitely can up the cost to be competitive. Instead of racing with production cars now they would be 100% one off cars. I understand the need to separate them in order to make it fare for all of the cars that are already running. Hell, I just built an amazing car and now we are wondering what to do with it now that the turbo is out.

I JUST WANT TO GO FAST..........

 

[george.felix]

Mr Badass yes of course I was kidding about Johnny....

 

[racer570]

Ried, I agree totally with your assessment of how a better driver can beat a less skilled driver in a lesser car, but I think what George is saying, is that if both drivers are equally skilled, the driver with the faster car has a much better chance of winning. Especially in the BITD series where most of the races are shorter and more of a sprint as compared to SCORE (bwc, parker 250, etc). The turbo car will definitely have a clear cut advantage at these races, as compared to the Mint and v2r.

 

[JoeyD23]

I see your point. But it seems like a "I want a trophy to class". It's kind of like desert racing for dirt bikes. They have so many classe

I see your point and I agree with most of it. The only thing I see wrong is the Unlimited part. That definitely can up the cost to be competitive. Instead of racing with production cars now they would be 100% one off cars. I understand the need to separate them in order to make it fare for all of the cars that are already running. Hell, I just built an amazing car and now we are wondering what to do with it now that the turbo is out.

I JUST WANT TO GO FAST..........

I don't think it becomes "I want a trophy class" it just keeps things fair and balanced. Let the turbos run against Turbos. They can define the Unlimited class. Only 5 UTVs even entered that class at V2R. That class has no identity right now. Lacretia dominates in what is a Pro UTV essentially. If guys want to build some crazy wide or long UTV let them. I think the way you guys build the current UTVs are the ultimate set up. Turbos & Superchargers change the class drastically not just now but for the future.

 

[Mike L]

After reading all these threads and trying to keep up on everyones complaints and Ideas it's probably time to throw my hat in the ring.

I think it would be ideal if there were 3 UTV classes in BITD. Pro Production, Pro Unlimited, and Open. The production and unlimited classes would be identical when it comes to chassis and suspension setup and the only change would be in the motor package. I'm curious to see how a manual transmission plays out vs a CVT. Also how does a turbo stack up against a MT. These MT cars may be better suited for the unlimited class with the turbos. Open would combine the sportsman and Unlimited class of today.

One major thing that I also think that should happen is to not allow mid year rule changes. If any Manufacturer introduces a new vehicle that does not fit the rules as they are written then it should run in the open class for the remainder of the season. Also the rule book for the following year should be released in sept-oct to give all teams ample time to adjust and build for the following year.

If we don't introduce some consistency into our field, it's going to drive away more people than it will attract.

 

[suspended fabrication]

I think we are all missing the major point and only concentrating on the racing factor how about we look at the industry that will fall if people have to build new cars every year just because the manufactures released a new car. questions to ask your self. who will buy the old car that is now out dated? in turn thus will start shrinking the class not only from returning racers (with outdated cars) but also new racers because they know there car will be out dated in less than a year. the majority of the class is your average guy that cant fork out 100k every year to build a competetive car. look at class 1600 and class 9 you can buy a 1980s car and make a few minor changes and still be competitive. Thats my two cents. look at the UTV industry not just the class.

 

[acme]

Some food for thought:

If you gave Robby, Rob Mac, BJ, Dondel, Menzies, Voss and Andy M all TT's with 800 HP, who would win in a 500 mile race? Now give any 2 of those guys 900 HP and who would you think has an advantage? Allowing a 10-15% difference in power or a change to the rules with a model year upgrade seems a recipe for keeping up with the Jones' and forces people to consider if they can afford to build a new car each year when considering the class... or if they want to continue in it.

What happens if/when a gearbox car comes out and after 3 mos with a factory team, it proves to be more reliable than a CVT??? Another new car and now those multiple 5-25 min belt changes will determine a win or loss to a great driver in a CVT car. The question might be how many guys other than the factory supported guys could afford another build after the N/A to Turbo build an then to a ??? car?

It really boils down to if it's a racers class or a factory class and if it has any consistent rules...