Red Lands Racing/Motive Engineering BITD build
- Thread starter motive
- Start date
motive
Active Member
Thanks guys. We can't wait to meet all of you at the UTVUG World Championship. I had planned to make the rounds at Parker and meet everyone I could but car problems and exhaustion won the day.
Just to be clear, the 4 seater will not be at Laughlin. We are still waiting on a critical part that is custom to that car. It should however make its debut at the Mint 400.
While we would have all liked to have the new build ready for this race, it has been a well valued education to rebuild the 2 seat chassis race car. We have learned more of what wears out, takes damage, how not to do things, ergonomics, serviceability, teamwork, perseverance, and working through shear exhaustion. All these lessons will make us better as a team in general. This is our rookie year and already we have had a very sharp learning curve on what it takes to prep and keep one of these cars running. We have made changes to the 4 seater due to things that we learned from the 2 seater that will make it much more durable, easier to service, easier to drive at high speed for extended periods of time. This set back of getting the new build on the track has really turned into a great opportunity that had we not had it, it wouldn't have been incorporated into our program until a future car was built.
Hopefully we caught all the gremlins on the 2 seater and we can get a respectable finish next Saturday so that we get a decent start position for the inaugural race of the Redlands Racing 4 seat chassis.
Just to be clear, the 4 seater will not be at Laughlin. We are still waiting on a critical part that is custom to that car. It should however make its debut at the Mint 400.
While we would have all liked to have the new build ready for this race, it has been a well valued education to rebuild the 2 seat chassis race car. We have learned more of what wears out, takes damage, how not to do things, ergonomics, serviceability, teamwork, perseverance, and working through shear exhaustion. All these lessons will make us better as a team in general. This is our rookie year and already we have had a very sharp learning curve on what it takes to prep and keep one of these cars running. We have made changes to the 4 seater due to things that we learned from the 2 seater that will make it much more durable, easier to service, easier to drive at high speed for extended periods of time. This set back of getting the new build on the track has really turned into a great opportunity that had we not had it, it wouldn't have been incorporated into our program until a future car was built.
Hopefully we caught all the gremlins on the 2 seater and we can get a respectable finish next Saturday so that we get a decent start position for the inaugural race of the Redlands Racing 4 seat chassis.
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Zane, I know you guys are a lot like me in the design and build dept. You tend to over think , over plan, and rely heavily on fundamental and proven principles of race car engineering from proven road racing geometry and design to guide you through your build. Based on your post, you apparently have learned early on that what you thought was perhaps solid design choices on your first build, were in need of a second look. My advice to your team is don't plan on coming into the sport with a big bang. Rather, just jump on in. The water is fine. Teething pains strike each and every builder when developing a "new" chassis.. Be it from a seasoned fabricator, or a group of well rounded motorsports enthusiasts like yourselves. Although access to, and the application of road racing geometry is growing in our sport, most cars we compete against are just not built on said foundation. One walk through contingency with an educated set of eyeballs back that fact. Look at the new Jimco build. Mike Julson is no slouch, yet he is opting to use over the counter suspension components from Lone star, instead of building his own. I look at the Lonestar kit, and see what I think are vulnerabilities based on my experience, so I opt to have custom arms built to my specs. Badass arms that allow for more desirable motion ratios and more "proper" alignment specs and geometry. Out of the box, our car worked like shit. A mile off. We spent a significant amount of time tuning and testing w/fox to get a handle on it, and are finally getting closer to a raceable set up, whilst the lonestar guys just fly on by! I must enjoy putting in the bufoo hours, I guess!
My point is, just do what it takes to start the real testing of your chassis. Get that dog in the fight,. watch it fall short, and respond accordingly. Whether I take a month to design my car, or a whole year for that matter, when it hits the dirt, change is certain. Perhaps then, I think I should have spent less time tinkering, and more time racing. The knowledge gained from racing a car far exceeds the value of the data used in designing it. An old adage from one of Henry Fords early business partners James Couzens, who was instrumental in Fords early success seems to fit well here. "Fail faster to improve"
motive
Active Member
Reid, I agree with what you said. In my world we call it time to shoot the engineer. We have made some changes based on things we have learned from Parker and from this rebuild but it is nothing that caused more holdup. We are seriously waiting on a vital component. I don't know if it was ordered wrong or the manufacture messes up so I don't even want to say what it is less someone think I am blaming that company. As soon as we get it the build will be able to be wrapped up. Until then we will do the improvements we can from the things we learn in the meantime but we are all excited to get the car in the dirt and start working on the issues that the engineering can't always tell you.
If nothing else, racing this 2 seater with the lonestar suspension will give us a baseline. Whether we feel our designs are an improvement for our use or we need to rethink stuff, it will give us a quantifiable approach to how our car is working.
If nothing else, racing this 2 seater with the lonestar suspension will give us a baseline. Whether we feel our designs are an improvement for our use or we need to rethink stuff, it will give us a quantifiable approach to how our car is working.
Reid while you & I agree on many if not on most things, much of what you posted I will have to disagree with. For one the Jimco build is not really what we would all expect to see out of Jimco. The suspension choice was per the customer not Mikes. I know Jimco spoke with the rule maker & tech director and my understanding is there were a few things that Jimco would like to see changed or more open, and they are not. I have a feeling this build is more because of who asked him to build the chassis and the money they brought with them, then Jimco's actual interest in this class.
Regarding the therory of just build it, race it and learn as you go, IMO is not the way to go. That therory did not make a good first year with the Can Am Maverick. Hindsight I would think you would argee, and can you imagine if you raced a part time schedule the first year with testing, & more testing between without the pressure of a race date looming? I've seen many very custom builds that get scrapped or frustration sets in when you use a race as your testing ground. Do you think Jimco, Geiser, GM's Vortex program, VW's TT program or any other big time program just built it and raced it to see where they stacked up, and to see if their creation holds up? I can assure they did not. When Jimco built their first TT I can tell you there was multiple weekends & weeks spent in Plaster City developing the truck and more importantly trying to develop the XTrac gear box, which BTW took a year of testing while racing and eventually had to be scrapped. Why? Because racing becomes a very, very expensive test session. Plus it does not look good for the business or team.
I would rather see the Red Lands guys or anyone building something that's not off the shelf, take their race money and spend 4-5 weekends in Plaster City or Barstow testing, testing and more testing. Run an old Fud or MDR 25 mile loop over & over until you have what you feel is competitive and all the major bugs are worked out. Also by running the same loop you can get real data that can be compared lap by lap, driver by driver. A place like Plaster City is some of the best toughest terrain around. PC has a bit of everything, even a little Baja as they are only 10 miles from the Mexico fence.
If I could build the class 1900 creation I have in my head, I know this is exactly how I would do it. It would have hundreds of miles of day & night testing. It would be torn down & prepped several times before we ever saw our first race. I don't go to races to test. When we show up we are a threat to our competitors and we race to win.
Now with all that said, I know your team did not have that luxury as you signed with a manufacture only weeks prior to the new season, and your contract has you racing two series. You can't pick & chose your races or when you race, but I bet you wish you could!
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baja specialist
Well-Known Member
It's funny reading the comments regarding my program from someone that I have not met or spoken to about it. But seems to know something about it. I will tell you from my conversations with Mike he is very interested in this class and UTV's. From a business point of view, do you think there are more Trophy Trucks, 1 cars, 10 cars or UTV's being made everyday. Even from a racing stand point the UTV class has grown so much faster than any other class out there. This is why Mike is interested in this class, it's all about the numbers. It has little to do with much else. Yes, my background and experience in desert racing I'm sure helped him decide. Make no mistake he is doing what he is doing because of the numbers of UTV's out there and not so much on the number I'm paying him.
I decided to use Lone Star because they are available and seem to be working well, and it's a proven product with a great track record. I do not have any desire to be somebody's genie pig while trying to reinvent the wheel and find my self sitting out in the desert.
I think the race will come down to the whole race program and driving ability, not as much of who has the most custom car on the line.
the stripping shop
RACER - UTVUnderground Approved
nailed it
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Actually Todd, I stand my ground on this one. Perhaps it comes down to discipline, but when we test, there is no sense of urgency to keep the car rolling forward as quickly as possible, until a given distance or checkered flag is realized. In our world of testing, there are far too many adjustments, and conversations as to the next course of action to be taken to drive the car for more than 40 or 50 miles at a time. Since we start the season with our car pretty far off center, there is a tireless race and test and race and test again process we go through to dial the car in. In testing, we get the car where it is manageable for Marc to drive, and then he drives the piss out of it in the next race, exploiting every stone that was left unturned. Plaster is convenient for shakedown runs, but doesn't have the soft, deep sand that San Felipe offers. Nor does it have miles and miles of punishing whoops to really see what your shocks are made of.
Yeah, our first year was disastrous, but our situation is a bit different than most in that the obligation Marc has to his sponsors for exposure says it's better to be out there at each race, rather than testing in some obscure or remote location where the branding is hidden from the public eye. I serioisly doubt that we would be the reigning Pro UTV champions if we spent 2013 testing in preparation for a full 2014 campaign. Like the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. If we were breaking a arms and snapping shock shafts at every outing, then I would agree, more testing before racing would be in order. Since 2013, our cars rarely show up at a race not in podium form, mostly because of Marc's ability to adapt to his equipment and our ability to service the car as necessary to get it to the end.
We feel pretty confident that after only 3 short races this season, 2 of which we received full points for, that we have the car and ourselves in a pretty favorable position for this years Mint 400. I however would not have the same confidence if we only had testing time on the car at this point, instead of wheel to wheel data to grow by.
Yeah, our first year was disastrous, but our situation is a bit different than most in that the obligation Marc has to his sponsors for exposure says it's better to be out there at each race, rather than testing in some obscure or remote location where the branding is hidden from the public eye. I serioisly doubt that we would be the reigning Pro UTV champions if we spent 2013 testing in preparation for a full 2014 campaign. Like the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. If we were breaking a arms and snapping shock shafts at every outing, then I would agree, more testing before racing would be in order. Since 2013, our cars rarely show up at a race not in podium form, mostly because of Marc's ability to adapt to his equipment and our ability to service the car as necessary to get it to the end.
We feel pretty confident that after only 3 short races this season, 2 of which we received full points for, that we have the car and ourselves in a pretty favorable position for this years Mint 400. I however would not have the same confidence if we only had testing time on the car at this point, instead of wheel to wheel data to grow by.
Reid I don't know your test track in PC, but look into the Jimco track or look into running an old MDR course using Gypson Rd, that will work the shocks pretty good. Gypson has been known to seporate the men from boys. Then you can run the Coyote wash West which would give you more load, it's not quite like San Felipe, but it's as close as your going to get without going to Felipe, and it will give you a good base line. You also have Superstion Mtn, and the wash behind it. When we tested we had two tracks. A close 5 mile loop near the black top road. This was good for quick shake downs after a prep. But if we were testing a new car, or major changes we had a longer track that was part of the race courses on the Plaster City West side.
I do agree at time racing is and can be the only way to test something's. Like racing in someone else's dust, or rutted tracks or silt. But using a race is a very costly way to test also. When VW with Mark Miller were building & testing the VW Tourag TT, they went to Felipe the week after the race and used the torn up course as their test. They got the worst course, had it themselves, could run sections over to duplicate the issue or fix. For those guys it was not a budget thing, and maybe for Marc it's not as much as a new team or a team that races with out support on a Coors Light budget.
I do agree at time racing is and can be the only way to test something's. Like racing in someone else's dust, or rutted tracks or silt. But using a race is a very costly way to test also. When VW with Mark Miller were building & testing the VW Tourag TT, they went to Felipe the week after the race and used the torn up course as their test. They got the worst course, had it themselves, could run sections over to duplicate the issue or fix. For those guys it was not a budget thing, and maybe for Marc it's not as much as a new team or a team that races with out support on a Coors Light budget.
motive
Active Member
So that last post didn't work posting up pictures from my phone. Not even recognizable as the same car. The car is sitting low in these pictures. After snapping them in the dirt lot next to contingency we loaded up and headed over to the Fox trailer by the UTVWC stageing area. Fox worked their magic with new valving specs, springs and setting both the ride height and the crossover collar. Just driving around the bumps in the parking lot I could tell Ryan was excited by the adjustments by the smile on his face.
motive
Active Member
So this is the only photo that my gopro caught. I must have hit the button twice changing the settings from video to timer delay. Its too bad to because it would have caught some great action. I have to say that the feeling sitting in this moment is anxiously waiting. I use to race some motocross and the engines reving would make the adrenaline intoxicating. It would be cool to capture that with utv's but the dead engine start is better than a bunch of cars just idling there. Except someone a couple cars over HAD started their engine. I bet they were just over anxious and didn't mean to cheat but in the moment it was frustrating sitting there knowing they would get the jump.
I don't think we did too bad off the line as the Queen motor put down some serious power. We had decided our strategy would be to survive the start as it wouldn't be cool for a rookie team to tangle up the entire line with some hero antics. Unfortunately backing off meant both sides squeezed us out. Marc Burdett tangled with someone just in front of us and we saw him get high on two wheels but he pulled it out. When we got off the watered section the dust was terrible being in the back of our pack. Ryan was driving very conservatively and slowed down several times due to poor visibility. I kept thinking we needed to get up on the bumper of the car in front of us so we could at least follow his lights. Several times though the cars in front of us would over drive their visibility and run off the road so we made several passes. Then in one section of total blindness someone tried going around us. We were on the left side of the road so Ryan could get the best visibility. The other car went up on the embankment on our left side and quickly got around us but turned back onto the road too soon and their rear tire caught our front causing them to roll. We lost several positions as we came to a complete stop with the rolled car right in front of us. I really don't know how we were not nailed from behind. I believe it was just a short distance later that we came upon the Jagged car that had rolled and then hid by a couple other cars. Luckily someone was pointing the cars to the other side of the track a 100 feet before or we might have been part of the pile up too.
The Fox proving grounds were the best part of the course! We caught some cleaner air and was really able to open it. We were able to see another car about half way thought and we were able to catch them by the end of the rough section. Fox set up the suspension perfect. Can't thank them enough for their hard work.
The second lap we had a belt go just before the hot pits. We changed it but still had to pull into the pits as there were still pieces of the old belt whipping around. Somewhere in the third lap something broke in the drivetrain ending our day. It was disappointing but the whole event was still a blast. Joey, MadMedia, UTVUG, and BITD put on a great race.
motive
Active Member
Ok, I know that no one really cares about the going on with the 2 seater rebuild. Updated on the new car has been slow so I'll try to get you up to speed as there has been some progress. We got the missing components in the mail the day we left for the UTVWC so I have been able to more forward again. Most of the changes that Ryan requested to increase the steering angle have been finished along with a lot of the fab that was not in the scope of work that Thad at Fabworxs was to perform. Interior paneling has been finished along with some cosmetic changes.
baja specialist
Well-Known Member
Wow... Just WOW
Anything new on this build?
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