Red Lands Racing/Motive Engineering BITD build

[suicidejockey]

Hey Zane
If you guys need any help with anything hit me up. I'm just up the canyon from you guys in Heber and would love to see the build

 

[motive]

Hey Zane
If you guys need any help with anything hit me up. I'm just up the canyon from you guys in Heber and would love to see the build

Your welcome anytime! We won't have the chassis back for a couple weeks so the shop be empty for awhile. This is the time I have to machine all my stuff before assembly.

 

[motive]

I should be a wheel designer. This thing is killing it. HAHA

Made entirely from electrons it has no mass. Talk about reducing unsprung and rotational weight!

 

[the stripping shop]

I have thought about the necessity of beadlocks but it was just in passing. I assumed it was needed because the lower air pressure that the ATV style tires can handle. We would love to hear from some of your guys that don't run beadlocks!

any wheel that has a billet center is my choice doesn't matter the brand. The only reason we ran bead locks was for the reinforcement when you hit something. Every time we ran a cast wheel we would destroy them. I am pretty sure the reason most teams run omf are the only teams that run 15" wheels pretty sure there the only ones making them with a billet center. If you run 14" wheels you have a couple options. The brand doesn't matter it how much the bead will take before they are destroyed. We ran every season with out a spare tire just to let you know.

 

[the stripping shop]

If you are getting 12" of stroke on the rear shock, you got problems my friend. Fox quoted me 9.75" I believe on the factory replacement 3.0.

I believe the walker have a internal spacer in them. so they wouldn't stroke all the way.

 

[Red Lands]

any wheel that has a billet center is my choice doesn't matter the brand. The only reason we ran bead locks was for the reinforcement when you hit something. Every time we ran a cast wheel we would destroy them. I am pretty sure the reason most teams run omf are the only teams that run 15" wheels pretty sure there the only ones making them with a billet center. If you run 14" wheels you have a couple options. The brand doesn't matter it how much the bead will take before they are destroyed. We ran every season with out a spare tire just to let you know.

I like the extra strength you get from bead-lock too. I have actually rolled a tire of the rim with the stock tires and wheels on our Wildcat (it was a little under-inflated maybe 10 psi). The bead-lock rings and hardware do add a couple pounds per wheel--right where you don't want it--but IMO its cheap insurance. I have never run truck tires on a UTV (on 15'' wheels) but I would love to hear from anybody who has. The truck tires are significantly heavier than a UTV style tire (5-10 Lbs per tire) at least double or triple the weight a bead lock ring would add. The truck tires have a stiffer carcass and can be run with a much higher psi. I would assume they are more durable, more resistant to flats, and a lot less likely to roll of the rim....probably why the 1600 class cars (similar weights and speeds) run without bead-locks.

You ran with no spare--that is some nice weight savings....did you run tire blocks? How did you handle the flats? Or are those some dang good driving skills and you didn't get flats

 

[COGNITO]

If you are getting 12" of stroke on the rear shock, you got problems my friend. Fox quoted me 9.75" I believe on the factory replacement 3.0.

if i am not mistaken, your tape measure shows 12". My tape measure also shows 12", picture below. Whoever at Fox told you that, is mistaken, or maybe you misunderstood. The rear FOX shocks have the same stroke as the OEM shock, which is only 1/16" less than 12".

The orange/yellow foam bumper squishes down to about 1/4". Just FYI, i work pretty tight with Fox.

 

[COGNITO]

Anyone want to continue on my personal set by step guide to building a race car?

So earlier I went over steps 1 and 2 of designing a race car. Step 3 is a simple but important one. WHEELS.

The problem is that so many people view wheels as an afterthought or simply a cosmetic decision. Now I'm not saying you have to choose your specific wheel at this point but you do need to consider what backspacing and sizes are available. Waiting till the suspension is bolted on to pick a wheel in order to maximize track width is a big mistake. Increasing track width by changing wheel offset has consequences that needs to be understood.

So what are we looking for in a wheel? Idealy it needs to be light and strong. Not just statically but also be able to deform instead of all out fail if it takes a hit. You can continue on with a bent wheel but not with a chunk missing. Are you going to need bead locks?

Spun wheels like OMF fill these requirements very well but do cost significantly more than a cast wheel. Sometimes decisions have to be made with the wallet.

After you decide what type of wheel you can afford you need to consider what width and offsets you can get. These are important figures to design your suspension around. Things like scrub radius and spring rates are effected by changing wheels. You can design an optimized suspension around just about any wheel size and offset. But once the suspension geometry is set in steal, either stock, off the shelf kit, or custom, all the hard earned design that went into that suspension is changed whenever you change wheels.

Feel free to chime in, comment, correct me, or expound more on the subject. There are a lot of opinions about how to do something and this is just mine. Doesn't mean its right, so lets hear yours.

you have to take the tire diameter into account also

 

[badassmav]

We currently run ITP Blackwaters, 8 ply sidewall, 30" tires on an OMF 15" billet center beadlock. It's been a while since I weighed one, but I think a wheel and tire weighs 48 lbs., which accounts for nearly 1/2 of our unsprung weight. The open lug tread pattern is more aggressive than we would like, but our options are limited w/15" wheels. I advise you look into tire availability before committing to a 15" wheel. We have ran them now for approx. 1,500 miles (on 2 sets). We are averaging 1 flat every 500 miles. 3 flats total, and at least one, and possibly 2 were the result of aggressive driving. I'm convinced the aggressive tread pattern is contributing to our belt issues. Lastly, the weight of our car is hard on the centers. They (billet centers) last us one season.

 

[motive]

Justin, I reread your original comment on the rear shock stroke. I thought it said over 12" but you said "upwards of 12". My bad. My tape does show 12" metal to metal like yours. Pulled out my notes from my conversation with fox and I wrote down 10 3/4". He gave me some decimal value and I rounded. Based on physical mesurement that would be about right after you consider the bump stop as you stated.

 

[motive]

Reid, thanks for being so open with your failure rate on your tires. It would be interesting to track the number of cars that finish on each tire vs. the number of flats for each type and get some average fail rates for each tire. Of course take it with a grain of salt as driver error is a variable.

 

[the stripping shop]

You ran with no spare--that is some nice weight savings....did you run tire blocks? How did you handle the flats? Or are those some dang good driving skills and you didn't get flats[/QUOTE]

tire ballz, I never tried tire blocks. both set up's are expensive but we didn't waste tires that way. we ran 150 miles on a flat at v2r and made it to the finish line. Its easier for crew to change tire then driver look at jaggy they would of lost the championship last year if it wasn't for tire blocks. Better yet look at coastal they lost the championship not running tire blocks but they won the Baja 1000 with tire blocks. Utv racing is getting to were if you have one issue your out of the podium spot.

 

[Red Lands]

You ran with no spare--that is some nice weight savings....did you run tire blocks? How did you handle the flats? Or are those some dang good driving skills and you didn't get flats

tire ballz, I never tried tire blocks. both set up's are expensive but we didn't waste tires that way. we ran 150 miles on a flat at v2r and made it to the finish line. Its easier for crew to change tire then driver look at jaggy they would of lost the championship last year if it wasn't for tire blocks. Better yet look at coastal they lost the championship not running tire blocks but they won the Baja 1000 with tire blocks. Utv racing is getting to were if you have one issue your out of the podium spot.[/QUOTE]

I have never run tire blocks or ballz but I would imagine you would want to run bead-locks with this set-up to keep the tire from spinning on the rim if it lost pressure. Do the ballz/blocks add much weight?

 

[BiggJim]

tire ballz, I never tried tire blocks. both set up's are expensive but we didn't waste tires that way. we ran 150 miles on a flat at v2r and made it to the finish line. Its easier for crew to change tire then driver look at jaggy they would of lost the championship last year if it wasn't for tire blocks. Better yet look at coastal they lost the championship not running tire blocks but they won the Baja 1000 with tire blocks. Utv racing is getting to were if you have one issue your out of the podium spot.

I have never run tire blocks or ballz but I would imagine you would want to run bead-locks with this set-up to keep the tire from spinning on the rim if it lost pressure. Do the ballz/blocks add much weight?[/QUOTE]

You can not run either without a beadlock system as you have to be able to have the tire open to install them.

 

[AReed]

A lot of us guys thay rum tire balls run them with no air in the tire, just in the balls so a bead lock is a most. I really like the OMF, it's one of the best if not the best for sure but I run the Methods and I'm really happen with them. The Avid Mav that I race BITD with runs them and during V2R I shredded a tire and the rim was fine. They're 15" rims with 30" mongrels. I personally wouldn't run an LT tire.

 

[Red Lands]

The Polaris frame, although possibly a better design, is a fatso!
Here's the weight of the 2014 Maverick Max 4-seater, bare frame, as delivered from the manufacturer. It's a nice weight to be at if you didn't have to cut it all off and start over.

I had a chance to weigh the frame with without the factory roll cage attached. I was surprised how much difference it made. The Polaris XP4 frame without the roll cage attached--basically apples for apples with how you weighed your Maverick Max 4-seater frame-- is almost the same weight. Less than 10% difference between the two. The two factory frames fully assembled are probably pretty close to the same weight.

 

[COGNITO]

Reid, thanks for being so open with your failure rate on your tires. It would be interesting to track the number of cars that finish on each tire vs. the number of flats for each type and get some average fail rates for each tire. Of course take it with a grain of salt as driver error is a variable.

i attest to the ITP ultracross, no flats at Silver State, none at Baja 500, none at V2R (the 350 miles that we did), none at BWDC.
We had 2 flats at the Mint 400, dusty as heck and hit a boulder for the first flat, the second flat i was surprised at. But 2 flats for about 1400 miles is outstanding.

Method race wheels, no failures all season. They have a 4/3 offset and a 5/2 offset available.

 

[Red Lands]

We have had the machine torn down for a few months now. Since then we have been in the process of measuring, designing, modeling and rechecking everything. Off and on we have torn it down and re-installed components as we have been working through our build plan. Last night we re-verified a few measurements off the chassis and suspension and tore it down again for the last time. Tonight the plan is to cut down the frame to just what we plan to use off the stock chassis. The sawzall is all polished up and ready to go We are super excited to be moving on to the phase where all our hard work really starts coming to together.

 

[Red Lands]

i attest to the ITP ultracross, no flats at Silver State, none at Baja 500, none at V2R (the 350 miles that we did), none at BWDC.
We had 2 flats at the Mint 400, dusty as heck and hit a boulder for the first flat, the second flat i was surprised at. But 2 flats for about 1400 miles is outstanding.

Method race wheels, no failures all season. They have a 4/3 offset and a 5/2 offset available.

I haven't run a set but the ITP Ultracross is the tire I've had my eye on. Thanks for the good info!

 

[tatum]

I haven't run a set but the ITP Ultracross is the tire I've had my eye on. Thanks for the good info!

We did all 3 Baja races in 2013 with the Ultracrosses and I was very impressed with them. I know we had a couple flats but never when I was driving.