That will be an issue wih any method of checking front toe only (which is what he originally asked about)... Also, so long as nothing is bent, the tie rods should be the same length. If one is longer than the other with the rack centered and car square, something isn't right. The best, cheapest, and easiest way to make sure the car is square is the way racers have done it for decades.. Four jackstands, some string, and a tape measure. I have tried the super wazzoo race car laser alignment systems, and they seem to be more of a hassle to set-up than they are worth.
All UTV's Adjusting Toe
- Thread starter TNT
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That will be an issue wih any method of checking front toe only (which is what he originally asked about)... Also, so long as nothing is bent, the tie rods should be the same length. If one is longer than the other with the rack centered and car square, something isn't right. The best, cheapest, and easiest way to make sure the car is square is the way racers have done it for decades.. Four jackstands, some string, and a tape measure. I have tried the super wazzoo race car laser alignment systems, and they seem to be more of a hassle to set-up than they are worth.
TNT
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What’s funny about all these methods is getting the tires straight by eye within 1/8 – 3/16†toe tolerance per the shop manual. “Straight" to what ref point?….Right from the beginning you started to accumulate/stack tolerance.
What is more funny is the dealer charges $100/hr for this methodology. For that I am sure there is a lazer tracking device that beats jack stands and string in the hassle category. Well I’d hope we can do better than that dealer. I carry two when we raced, not four, and I got 24 feet of haul space
I know I'm anal, and I thought Starbucks charged too much for labor, can’t be the coffee for $4.00/cup.
What is more funny is the dealer charges $100/hr for this methodology. For that I am sure there is a lazer tracking device that beats jack stands and string in the hassle category. Well I’d hope we can do better than that dealer. I carry two when we raced, not four, and I got 24 feet of haul space
I know I'm anal, and I thought Starbucks charged too much for labor, can’t be the coffee for $4.00/cup.
Thats why I am going to try the Laser. It fits in the palm of my hand and can be set on a milk crate behind the rear wheel and have the laser point toward the front wheel. Align the beam 1/8" away from the rear tire on two points then adjust the front toe based on that value. That is basically what i do with the angle iron rail except trying not to bump it and move it while taking measurements is teadious at best. The laser does not care if you interrupt it.
You are assuming that the rear is square and that there is zero toe..
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Even if it is not you would still be setting it to track front with rear. As we can not adjust toe or it is difficult on most UTV rear supension at least there is some point of reference. Other than taking it to an alignment center how else can it be done as would they not also reference the rear with the front?
I would find the center of the rear of the chassis (measure between the rear lower control arm pivots) and do the same for the front. Drop plumb bobs from those points and draw (i use a chalk line) a line extending from beyond the front of the car, to beyond the rear of the car, through those points. You now have the chassis centerline. Measure perpendicular to that c/l to a distance (doesn't matter what, as long as it's past the track width) at the rear, set your laser there, and aim your laser to the same distance from the c/l in the front. Measure away.
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TNT
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I’ll tell ya how the big boys do it, might spark some ideas. Reminds me when I was on the Boeing Dreamliner assemble line couple years ago in Charleston, SC. I was working the rear cargo door that was not coming together correctly, tolerances were accumulating. Looked at the Engineering and some ding dong put the primary datum off the airplane, the secondary was the contour of the composite skin, the tertiary holes in the door edge frame. We had no idea how to find the primary off the airplane. I called design in Seattle and asked what the %$#&#* were you guy’s thinking and a ME helped come up with the idea that worked in Seattle, a bigger better line with laser coming off the factory walls. All we had was a portable so we built an axis off the secondary and tertiary ignored the primary to find out issues, tool up to them, control the tolerance stack-ups. This is what happens when you try and build the first ever “paperless” airplane in the world, no drawings, just tolerances in 3d models.
So there are remote systems with targets you place at the center of the chassis datum’s, if you know them to develop an 3d axis, of symmetry. From that axis there is software that will upload points to a 3d model from targets you place and shoot anywhere. You end up with a 3d model of points showing tolerance accumulations for tracking alignment of the tires per-say. Now that’s precision that has been around for decades I am sure most big UTV factories are capable of as should their dealers.
900XP my guess is the trailing arms chassis lugs are jig located and the tightly machines radius rods are used to locate the spindle, hub, rim, front ones are jig located too. From there tolerance will accumulate to the rim, so using Steve’s method will capture it, the rim would be a better target hard point than the tire. Steve’s method is a good one; you just have to make some assumptions based on your car being symmetrical or not and correct for it.
Shoot me a link to that laser please so we can check it out.
So there are remote systems with targets you place at the center of the chassis datum’s, if you know them to develop an 3d axis, of symmetry. From that axis there is software that will upload points to a 3d model from targets you place and shoot anywhere. You end up with a 3d model of points showing tolerance accumulations for tracking alignment of the tires per-say. Now that’s precision that has been around for decades I am sure most big UTV factories are capable of as should their dealers.
900XP my guess is the trailing arms chassis lugs are jig located and the tightly machines radius rods are used to locate the spindle, hub, rim, front ones are jig located too. From there tolerance will accumulate to the rim, so using Steve’s method will capture it, the rim would be a better target hard point than the tire. Steve’s method is a good one; you just have to make some assumptions based on your car being symmetrical or not and correct for it.
Shoot me a link to that laser please so we can check it out.
Here is one I goggled from Home depot:
SX3 Electronic Tool Laser Level-6041103 at The Home Depot level&storeId=10051
From the way the link copyed you may have to cut and past it. Its not the same one I have however it is similar. This one has more features than mine.
SX3 Electronic Tool Laser Level-6041103 at The Home Depot level&storeId=10051
From the way the link copyed you may have to cut and past it. Its not the same one I have however it is similar. This one has more features than mine.
TNT
Banned Por Vida
Nice and small, only $30. It doesn't really matter where you put it does it? Does it not have to stay in a fixed location? It can be between the front and rear tires on the ground?
Mark two targets on both rims same height from the ground. Shoot them, if you find the rear is toed apply that correction factor to the front.... Same thing for camber. Caster may need an angle finder, hard to shoot.
Think I'll get one tomorrow and give it a shot, no pun intended.
Mark two targets on both rims same height from the ground. Shoot them, if you find the rear is toed apply that correction factor to the front.... Same thing for camber. Caster may need an angle finder, hard to shoot.
Think I'll get one tomorrow and give it a shot, no pun intended.
TNT
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TNT
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Turns out that one doesn't measure distance. The Sonic Tape Measure does but not small surfaces, only works on large walls. I ended up using a plumb bob, straight edge, and tape measure. O well nice try I imagine the laser we need is those expensive ones used for shooting & surveying landscape. I'll check harbor freight next time I'm there.
toe has nothing to do with pulling to the right or left. caster is about the only thing up front other than the brake that would make it pull. if i had to bet i would say its rear tire pressure. with a solid rear drive a difference in rear tire dia. (caused by pressure diff.) will cause it to pull bad. pavement makes this even worse.
just my 2 cents
just my 2 cents
TNT
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Seems like we need a refresher on what toe setting’s do……Caster, Camber, Toe
"Toe settings affect three major areas of performance: tire wear, straight-line stability and corner entry handling characteristics.
Toe in bottom line: The wheels have absorbed the irregularity without significantly changing the direction of the vehicle. In this way, toe-in enhances straight-line stability.
Toe out bottom line: Thus, the car will always be trying to enter a turn, rather than maintaining a straight line of travel.
So it's clear that toe-out encourages the initiation of a turn, while toe-in discourages it."
TNT
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Spent a few hours on this Sunday, what a PITA!
First thing I did is set all tire pressure @ 8 PSI take it for a ride, still pulled, I’m anal about the 16 tires that hit the road when I go for rides and always keep them at proper pressure so I knew that wasn’t it.
XP900: First thing I did was drop my inner radius rod pivot points and front inner lwr a-arm pivots to the ground with a plum bob to establish a car center line. I used a metal 4’ t-square level straight edge taking measurements in front and rear of tire to find I had no toe in rear, my passenger side was further out than drivers, not symmetrical, not sure how much since I later found the metal t-square was not tall enough to sit on at least three knobblies.
Up front after getting inconsistent measurements from the t-square I switched to a 2x6x8 treated board on outside so I can sorta see the angle to the rear tire, taking measurements to CL in front of rear of tire to check toe. I found that both sides were toed in not to factory specs of toe-out 1/8-3/16, passenger toe in 1”, driver ½’. I ended up with 1/8-3/16 toe in on both sides but passenger side tie rod setting is about ½” longer since I was seeing the same lack of symmetry passenger out.
I’d want to double check but I believe my car is out of symmetry by ½ -1 “ not sure from what. I’ve rolled twice been through some nasty trails maybe I twisted my frame as a contributor.
In the end it drives and steers 10x’s easier no pull. There is NO WAY to get there using the shop manual procedure that does not take into account a ref line like the center of the car.
As many years as I have been doing this on quads now UTV’s it’s never been easy and accurate. Wish I could find a cheap laser & more accurate method to do the job.
First thing I did is set all tire pressure @ 8 PSI take it for a ride, still pulled, I’m anal about the 16 tires that hit the road when I go for rides and always keep them at proper pressure so I knew that wasn’t it.
XP900: First thing I did was drop my inner radius rod pivot points and front inner lwr a-arm pivots to the ground with a plum bob to establish a car center line. I used a metal 4’ t-square level straight edge taking measurements in front and rear of tire to find I had no toe in rear, my passenger side was further out than drivers, not symmetrical, not sure how much since I later found the metal t-square was not tall enough to sit on at least three knobblies.
Up front after getting inconsistent measurements from the t-square I switched to a 2x6x8 treated board on outside so I can sorta see the angle to the rear tire, taking measurements to CL in front of rear of tire to check toe. I found that both sides were toed in not to factory specs of toe-out 1/8-3/16, passenger toe in 1”, driver ½’. I ended up with 1/8-3/16 toe in on both sides but passenger side tie rod setting is about ½” longer since I was seeing the same lack of symmetry passenger out.
I’d want to double check but I believe my car is out of symmetry by ½ -1 “ not sure from what. I’ve rolled twice been through some nasty trails maybe I twisted my frame as a contributor.
In the end it drives and steers 10x’s easier no pull. There is NO WAY to get there using the shop manual procedure that does not take into account a ref line like the center of the car.
As many years as I have been doing this on quads now UTV’s it’s never been easy and accurate. Wish I could find a cheap laser & more accurate method to do the job.
TNT
Banned Por Vida
Turns out it was the axles on the CRV….Dealer called me today wanted $1000 to replace two fronts, make a long story short I got it down to $308 but I got to go get them @ O Reilly’s. What’ sad is what a rip these dealers are and how many ppl pay the price that don’t know any better like most women, my lady friend, some guys too.
The way i get the front end set up on a utv, is to center the steering wheel (make sure steering rack is in center as well) then take a measurement from the center of the tie rod bolt to a spot on the frame, and do the same on the other side (using same spots to measure). Adjust tie rods, so that each side is exactly the same. This will center the tires to the centerline of the chassis. As long as your measuring from something that is symmetrical on both sides of the car.
Then, i measure the toe using the inside edge of the wheel. How ever much its off, i will adjust each tie rod the same amount, and measure again, until i get it where i want. Then just to double check, i measure from the tie rod end to the chassis on both sides, and make sure that is still the same. Once that is done, the car should go straight, assuming the other alignment angles, tire pressures, a-arms, chassis etc are good. Plus your steering wheel should be level when driving straight as well.
G-
Then, i measure the toe using the inside edge of the wheel. How ever much its off, i will adjust each tie rod the same amount, and measure again, until i get it where i want. Then just to double check, i measure from the tie rod end to the chassis on both sides, and make sure that is still the same. Once that is done, the car should go straight, assuming the other alignment angles, tire pressures, a-arms, chassis etc are good. Plus your steering wheel should be level when driving straight as well.
G-
TNT
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Here’s a quick stick dwg tool design concept based on Greg’s method which is more accurate than mine. Bottom is a view looking rear, and then I pull a top view off it to show the measure tool. Only drew passenger side, drivers not shown but is symmetrical.
Basically, tubing welded together using hiem ball joints you disconnect your tie rods and attach to the hub clevis. Red sheet metal ‘L’ angle attaches to hiem and blue ‘L Slider’ angle locator that has a slotted hole and can rotate to reach the wheel, seats to the green wheel to set toe . The blue sliders and red angle have 1/8†scribed in gradients to check distance and angle. Same concept for camber, might need more legs for caster. Once set chalk wheels install tie rods.
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