Will the 2013 KOH UTV Race Scare People Away or Bring More

[atvobsession]

The glory of finishing the hardest UTV race on the planet will keep them coming.

EXACTLY!!

And thanks to Rugged Radio...I was able to talk to my pits and my co-driver...ALL DAY LONG! Perfectly clear!!

 

[American Rock Rods]

If I was designing the course for KOH 2014, I would keep EMC and UTV together, and I would make it 3 laps. All three laps would be different, but would share the first 15-25 miles of desert. And it would be up to the driver as to which order to do the laps. One lap desert, maybe 50-60 miles total, and two laps in the rocks, maybe 30 miles each. But different rocks.

Then give 12 hours to finish.

I understand the goal of Dave Cole, it is to make the race spectator friendly and get the spectators. Drama gets specators. Plus/minus 5 competitors doesn't really make a difference, but plus/minus 5,000 spectators does. Spectators bring sponsors, sponsors bring dollars.

But, no racers means no spectators. Look at the WEROCK race last year in Moab when just 2 UTV's showed up for a guaranteed $2500 payout. (myself and Todd Stephensen). There were spectators, but this year? Who knows.

Last year's KOH was racer friendly but not spectator friendly. This year, it was spectator friendly but not racer friendly. Dave needs a happy medium just as much as we do. We race UTV's for a few reasons, one of which I assume is that we don't have a half mil to drop on a competitive 4400 rig(counting logistics, spares, etc). For $30k, we can be competitive, and probably have more fun. And we can go kick it in Glamis the week after. But I know the average UTV racer can't afford $30k each year, so it needs to be a race that won't destroy vehicles. I think we proved this year that the desert is no problem for us, but the rocks break parts. Not a big issue if we can fix it, as UTV's are easy to fix. However, the waiting? It hurt. If there had been 2 more hours, I would have actually fixed my car and kept racing. I stopped because I knew there was zero chance of finishing within time, and going further without the possibility of finishing within time was just risking totaling the vehicle, or worse. I know at least one other person on this forum stopped for the same reason.

KOH 2014 UTV? Needs qualifying, optional lap order, and more time. None of that takes away from the spectating, but it gives the racers a better race, and brings them back next year. Don't take away from the difficulty factor, it is what makes KOH what it is, but at the same time, be realistic.

And I know there are EMC guys complaining about us, but seriously, I periodically daily drive an EMC legal rig. It doesn't compare to a UTV.

Proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3ReXD3gYQ&list=UUuFE0VDwppGp9uOqKedi9hg&index=7

 

[atvobsession]

I agree with Chris for the most part....

EMC and UTV have to run together, for maximum exposure for UTV's.

If you took this year's race....sent UTV first to Lap 2 at 7am....and sent EMC at 8am to Lap 1. I seriously doubt there would have been much co-mingling....and the spectators would have seen a constant supply of participants all day on each course.

I'm a rock crawling guy...that's pretty much all I do. I had no issue with the difficulty of the course, and I had no mechanical issues. I had my RZR setup for rock crawling...and hence the outcome. I saw the desert rigs....and I could tell you almost to the part, where they were going to break, and where they would have problems.

It's KING OF THE HAMMERS.....not King of the bypasses...or King of the sort of rocks. Look at the failure rate of the Ultra4 rigs....and the UTV should have a similar failure rate.

This year, 20% of the Ultra4 rigs finished on time. The UTV's, 9% finished on time.

That said...I'm confident without the EMC rigs clogging...myself, Pauly, Tim, and Dave would have finished on time.

That works out to 19%. Almost identical to the Ultra4.

And the time was pretty much apples to apples....

Ultra4 rigs must average 13.14MPH to finish ontime.

UTV's had to average 13.875 MPH to finish ontime.

 

[American Rock Rods]

It's KING OF THE HAMMERS.....not King of the bypasses...or King of the sort of rocks. Look at the failure rate of the Ultra4 rigs....and the UTV should have a similar failure rate.

It's a race. Not a technical rock crawling competition where you have to take the hardest line up each obstacle and stay within bounds of the cones.

Take the fastest line within the legal bounds of the course, which is generally 100' wide. Period.


And the traffic jams? They are part of KOH. They will be there every year. Next year I'm fairly sure there will be qualifying, and it will likely be in the desert. If you don't like the traffic jams, you're going to have to qualify well.

Unless of course, it's a random draw again, and then you just need to cross your fingers and plan to run unlimited.

 

[atvobsession]

It's a race. Not a technical rock crawling competition where you have to take the hardest line up each obstacle and stay within bounds of the cones.

It's a race, where rocks are the star attraction! Thousands of people don't crowd the whoops at mile 20....They go to Backdoor or Chocolate Thunder...etc.

Last year...was woefully inadequate to rocks...and Dave thankfully fix it. The desert guys, got a rude awakening by Aftershock. When I got to Aftershock, I was at minimum, 20th overall. When I got to Pit 2...I was 4th. Desert rig after desert rig....was either busted, stuck or off course.

The big boys already know this....."You gain minutes in the desert, but can lose hours in the rocks."

Take the fastest line within the legal bounds of the course, which is generally 100' wide. Period.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...but that wasn't what I was referring to.....my point is...the UTV's should be doing really hard rock sections, just like the Ultra4 cars and not bypassing them.

Rocks are here to stay....the UTV's proved they can do CT, WB, AF, etc. Dave's not going back to 80 miles of desert and Elvis downhill like last year.

And the traffic jams? They are part of KOH. They will be there every year. Next year I'm fairly sure there will be qualifying, and it will likely be in the desert. If you don't like the traffic jams, you're going to have to qualify well.

Unless of course, it's a random draw again, and then you just need to cross your fingers and plan to run unlimited.

While I think qualifying would be good....that will pose even more difficulties for the UTV's and the attrition rate. I could easily see 4 or 5 UTV's breaking in qualifying...and not able to make the race. We don't have the infrastructure to get parts that the Ultra4 guys do.....

With only 40 or so UTV's....your draw within each class, isn't the end of the world. Now if we had 100 UTV's....then it would make a bigger difference.


As for the traffic jams.....A UTV only traffic jam...is WAY different, than a UTV waiting for 6 5000lbs rigs to get unstuck. Me sitting in Aftershock for close to 90 minutes....for non-UTV's....was not racing. Me potentially sitting in Aftershock for 15-20 minutes for 6 UTV's would have been acceptable. Which is why you'll see some tweaks next year.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

I will probably regret typing this but WTF,

IMHO, The race course was too hard for all 4 classes. MC excluded. People want to say they finished. Attrition was too high.

I will not be teching cars next year. If ISA does it they need to find someone else.

Running UTV's as a separate race is not sensible, as volunteers are hard to come by.

This years race has 6 less starters than last year. So much for Damon bringing more cars than Mike Lasher.

Of the 5 years KOH has included the UTV's this was the best year. It is the first time they were not considered a side show no one cared about. Running them with EMC was a great idea. I assume few have ever raced the main race, as there are just as many trail tampons in the Ultra4 race. It happens!

Proof is in the fact that Thursday contingency was not well attended for the first time in the history of the race. Everyone was out watching the EMC/UTV race. Booth traffic was down for SXS Performance BTW all week.

I am kicking around racing next year but I am waiting to see what Dave will do before I invest in building a car. I don't want to race against just Mitch and Jon, I want to beat the EMC guys.


As said a few times in this thread. Talk is cheap, if the OHV community does lend a hand in the fight to keep the place open there won't be a next time.


YOU MUST PARTICIPATE in the fight. Please join me for the 2013 OHV Lobby days the 1st and last weeks of APRIL.

http://www.orba.biz/2nd-annual-ohv-lobby-days-to-be-held-during-the-month-of-april/

 

[American Rock Rods]

Last year...was woefully inadequate to rocks...and Dave thankfully fix it. The desert guys, got a rude awakening by Aftershock. When I got to Aftershock, I was at minimum, 20th overall. When I got to Pit 2...I was 4th. Desert rig after desert rig....was either busted, stuck or off course.

I assume this isn't directed at me. Seems like it. Might want to rethink your words.

 

[atvobsession]

I assume this isn't directed at me. Seems like it. Might want to rethink your words.

I have no idea how your rig was setup....so not at all. I was talking in general...and what I saw. 30+ years of rock crawling experience, so I can point out a weak link from a buggy to a RZR. Doesn't mean you still won't break something...but the weak link will be the item first to go. Sometimes..you want a weak link....then you know what part to bring, and field fix easily.

I don't know nearly as much about the desert, or how to drive it. Total learning curve. That's what makes this race so awesome.

 

[ducky10]

I was stuck behind an EMC vehicle for almost 2 hrs, yes 2 hrs. We timed out
waiting for this guy to get up the waterfall. We did eventually finish the race course. We came in around 9:00. So while we still would have timed out without the delay. I would have really liked to have more time and maybe next year we go ahead of the EMC guys. Oh and could we please not have to go up 19-20, that trail is a Co-Dog Killer.
See you all next year. #1920 Team Ducky

 

[megonzo]

Having read only the 1st page of this topic...I feal the following

1. Glad I didn't do it.
2. A racer has a KOH specific car.
3. As spectators, we went to the major obsticles to see nada, as the racers were hung up on the course.
4. A much more expensive race in the terms of carnage and entry fees


Just my 2 cents.

 

[megonzo]

I think its absolutely going to scare people away. The question is, is that a bad thing or a good thing? It really depends on how you look at it. KOH is the toughest UTV race on the planet, it should be big and scary. You got to sack up to take it on!! Now, the negative is if it kills car counts to the point that Cole drops the class altogether. I am hoping that it motivates racers that competed this year as well as others who didn't race to say that they want to take on the most difficult race in the world!

My question is this. How many of those who raced KOH are going to race the rest of the Ultra 4 series? Dave said that UTV's are welcomed at all rounds now of Ultra 4 racing.

Great observation. I too believe that Dave wants to eliminate UTV's. There was more UTV drama this year than last. Most UTV owners don't have the cash handy to make a KOH capable car, and how many drivers can make monthy or bi-weekly trips to Johnson Valley to learn the terrain.

I did enjoy being a spectator, but having to jump through hoops to get into UTV-ville at night is not fair. There should be a fee/cost is so desired, to get into Hammertown.

Just my 2 cents...or 3 cents.
Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[Brian B]

.

I will not be teching cars next year. If ISA does it they need to find someone else.

Any reason why Jeff?

 

[Crowdog]

I talked to Dave today in regards to UTVs at the Stampede Ultra4 race and he said that managing the UTV class takes more time than all other classes combined. Reading in between the lines I could see him easily dropping the UTV class, especially if none participate in the Ultra4 series.

 

[Brian B]

I talked to Dave today in regards to UTVs at the Stampede Ultra4 race and he said that managing the UTV class takes more time than all other classes combined. Reading in between the lines I could see him easily dropping the UTV class, especially if none participate in the Ultra4 series.

That would be crushing Jon.

Did he make any mention of UTV's and the series? I am going to try my best to race the Glen Helen race and hope others do as well.

If he does decide to drop the UTV class, myself as well as others I'm sure would like to know now. That would only be fair.

 

[07turbo]

I talked to Dave today in regards to UTVs at the Stampede Ultra4 race and he said that managing the UTV class takes more time than all other classes combined. Reading in between the lines I could see him easily dropping the UTV class, especially if none participate in the Ultra4 series.

That's sad. Did he say why we take more time?

We have been to KOH for three years and would hate to see it come to an end.

I would guess that the majority of entrants are like us, and enter trail vehicles rather than purpose built race vehicles. Odds are, we won't enter any other Ultra 4 events, so hopefully that isn't going to be his deciding factor.

I agree with Brian, if we aren't going to be allowed to race next year, it would be good to know as soon as possible.

 

[calstyl2]

I doubt he will drop UTV's, catch Dave on a bad day and its gonna be all negative, but the UTV's passed his test this year, well three did. While I see some tweeks coming for them, I doubt you will see them dropped.
If no one finished this year, they would of been done.

 

[Mike L]

For 2013 utvs will have a class at each of the ultra 4 races. This includes glen Helen, Nora 1000, etc.

You guys may not have to worry about a utv race at all next year let alone a king of the hammers if we don't win the battle against the marines. Get your @sses involved and help fight this fight to save the area you guys supposedly love so much.

 

[Crowdog]

That's sad. Did he say why we take more time?

UTV racers are looked at as a bunch of whiners.

One wife of a racer even sent them a scathing email and went off on Dave and the whole race.

Then the whole fiasco regarding "finish" order for those that did not cross the finish line was a PITA for them. Seems like it should have been easy enough, but getting IRC data, etc I guess was not easy.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

Any reason why Jeff?

A few.

While I want the ISA to grow, and become a universal sanction for UTV races.

My schedule is very busy, and its unfair for me to commit to doing tech inspection, and having to leave others hanging.

The others are personal, and not related to the ISA.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

I talked to Dave today in regards to UTVs at the Stampede Ultra4 race and he said that managing the UTV class takes more time than all other classes combined. Reading in between the lines I could see him easily dropping the UTV class, especially if none participate in the Ultra4 series.

That's Dave's way of trying to get you to increase his car count.

There are lots of places to race UTV's now, in fact more than Ultra4's.

I could also see him dropping the UTV race, but It would be a mistake.