The State of the UTV Desert Racing Class

[NIKAL]

I'm just going to be blunt here. To eliminate the factory UTV platform in place for a full tube frame and chassis would be the worst and dumbest thing any race org could ever do.

I think some are confused! No one is saying a Spec chassis where everyone runs the same identical chassis & suspension and only the body work & engine are from a manufacture.

Joey I'm just trying to be objective, how would having a factory replacement lower frame it be the worst thing ever? Honestly I'm really trying to understand how allowing a lower frame that is Identical specifications to the factory frame not a good idea? So if you raced a Can Am it would match a Can Am pivot & engine perfectly. If it was a 2 seat RZR the dimensions would match the RZR perfectly.

The idea is it would be built out of better material (DOM or Chromoly) and would cost less then buying a frame from the dealer. Most of the top UTV builders like the Cognito, the new Jimco & Thad's cars all have less then 25% of the original lower frame left anyways. Even that 25% left is gusseted or plated at the pivot points to make them stronger. You've already butchered the stock frame so much, if the Manufactures were going to get upset, why aren't they now?

Like I asked earlier which got no response. If you bent or tore the front a-arms off the car (Which several cars at the Mint did) and it also bent or tore off the factory pivot points. Could you make your own replacement tabs and weld them in? Or do you need to buy another factory frame and weld that section in?


From these pictures you can see there is not much stock frame left.

Cognito XP1K 4 seat chassis build using stock shock mounts

Thad's FabWerx, I think this was Marc Bernetts or maybe the Speed car?.

Motive's frame rails.

Jimco build

BTW all those Ford TT's in BITD dont have Ford engines. BITD rules allow other engines & Ford does not care. As long as the grill looks like a Ford and runs Ford decals your good to go.

 

[NIKAL]

Amen. First the frame goes, then the fenders. The manufacturers would be sure to follow.

Also, one would think that class representation is not needed for a class as strong as the 1900 class is, but, based on the extreme differences in opinion here, it would probably serve us well to have a panel of qualified and respected "enthusiasts" that could speak on our behalf. Unfortunately, many of the people mentioned as a prospective rep, also have some level of investment in the class, which is a serious conflict of interest.

I 100% agree you should not need a class representation, but as we know the 1900 class currently has this, but its all under one man, which is why you are having these issues. I also don't think this class is ready to be like all the other classes. Because you have manufactures involved and they are changing their vehicles specs yearly you cant just have one set of rules like 1600 which does not change much over years.

Reid having people in the sport with manufacture support as Class Reps would not be an issue as the Class Rep's would not be making the final decisions. Ultimately a rule change would go to a class vote. So if the Class Rep panel had 2 people with Manufacture support or was filled with primarily Polaris racers, that would not allow them to vote in a rule that benefits them or sway anyone, as its the other 60+ racers who make the final decision when regarding rules. This class Rep would be a line of communication between the Racer & the Race Promoter. Basically it would be very much as it is now, but instead of One person being the Rep, Running Tech, Making the rules and being the only one Casey will talk too, you would have checks & balances with a group of 3 or 5 acting as Class Reps. And these Rep's would also have to voted in every year or two, so it does not allow someone to stick around to long if the rest of the class does not like how that person is doing things.

 

[badassmav]

True, but the fact that over 75% of the cars in our class are Polaris', a ruling based on a "class vote" would always favor Polaris', no? That would be like taking a poll on whether or not bank vaults should be secured at night time, and of the 100 voters, 75 of them rob banks!! Ha ha! I know, I'm just being facetious!

 

[NIKAL]

True, but the fact that over 75% of the cars in our class are Polaris', a ruling based on a "class vote" would always favor Polaris', no? That would be like taking a poll on whether or not bank vaults should be secured at night time, and of the 100 voters, 75 of them rob banks!! Ha ha! I know, I'm just being facetious!

Valid point! OK so anyone running a Polaris does not get to vote! We can name it the Reid rule.

 

[badassmav]

Ha ha! Thanks, but I hate rules, and I am biased against people in general. I would however, stand behind you as being one of the representatives. You are well rounded and well versed in the sport of off road racing, and have obviously formed many alliances over the years. You are well-spoken, and do not have a "dog in the fight", so they say, and most importantly, you are likeable! Too bad that MP guy races a Polaris, because he would be an excellent rep. Although Joey D. has ties to Polaris, I know that he is loyal to the health and growth of Utes. I trust his participation would not be biased, as some people seem to think.

 

[Whattha]

Or you could have one unbiased person such as Nikal, and 1 from Polaris backed team, 1 from Kawi, 1 from BRP, and 1 from unlimited. That way the panel has a say for there respective team as well as the betterment for the class and sport.

 

[george.felix]

I 100% agree you should not need a class representation, but as we know the 1900 class currently has this, but its all under one man, which is why you are having these issues. I also don't think this class is ready to be like all the other classes. Because you have manufactures involved and they are changing their vehicles specs yearly you cant just have one set of rules like 1600 which does not change much over years.

Reid having people in the sport with manufacture support as Class Reps would not be an issue as the Class Rep's would not be making the final decisions. Ultimately a rule change would go to a class vote. So if the Class Rep panel had 2 people with Manufacture support or was filled with primarily Polaris racers, that would not allow them to vote in a rule that benefits them or sway anyone, as its the other 60+ racers who make the final decision when regarding rules. This class Rep would be a line of communication between the Racer & the Race Promoter. Basically it would be very much as it is now, but instead of One person being the Rep, Running Tech, Making the rules and being the only one Casey will talk too, you would have checks & balances with a group of 3 or 5 acting as Class Reps. And these Rep's would also have to voted in every year or two, so it does not allow someone to stick around to long if the rest of the class does not like how that person is doing things.

Do I hear an echo......sounds good. I don't think it's necessary to have a rep for Kawi, Deere etc. Just find the best people for the job. The quota system never works.

 

[facteryfmf]

Ha ha! Thanks, but I hate rules, and I am biased against people in general. I would however, stand behind you as being one of the representatives. You are well rounded and well versed in the sport of off road racing, and have obviously formed many alliances over the years. You are well-spoken, and do not have a "dog in the fight", so they say, and most importantly, you are likeable! Too bad that MP guy races a Polaris, because he would be an excellent rep. Although Joey D. has ties to Polaris, I know that he is loyal to the health and growth of Utes. I trust his participation would not be biased, as some people seem to think.

I don't think MP races a polaris anymore.

 

[JoeyD23]

I think some are confused! No one is saying a Spec chassis where everyone runs the same identical chassis & suspension and only the body work & engine are from a manufacture.

Joey I'm just trying to be objective, how would having a factory replacement lower frame it be the worst thing ever? Honestly I'm really trying to understand how allowing a lower frame that is Identical specifications to the factory frame not a good idea? So if you raced a Can Am it would match a Can Am pivot & engine perfectly. If it was a 2 seat RZR the dimensions would match the RZR perfectly.

The idea is it would be built out of better material (DOM or Chromoly) and would cost less then buying a frame from the dealer. Most of the top UTV builders like the Cognito, the new Jimco & Thad's cars all have less then 25% of the original lower frame left anyways. Even that 25% left is gusseted or plated at the pivot points to make them stronger. You've already butchered the stock frame so much, if the Manufactures were going to get upset, why aren't they now?

Like I asked earlier which got no response. If you bent or tore the front a-arms off the car (Which several cars at the Mint did) and it also bent or tore off the factory pivot points. Could you make your own replacement tabs and weld them in? Or do you need to buy another factory frame and weld that section in?


From these pictures you can see there is not much stock frame left.

Cognito XP1K 4 seat chassis build using stock shock mounts

Thad's FabWerx, I think this was Marc Bernetts or maybe the Speed car?.

Motive's frame rails.

Jimco build

BTW all those Ford TT's in BITD dont have Ford engines. BITD rules allow other engines & Ford does not care. As long as the grill looks like a Ford and runs Ford decals your good to go.

I fully understand what you are saying and I fully understand how it would benefit the vehicle itself. However I fully understand that you could kiss every bit of OEM support bye bye..

 

[FABWERX1]

I'm already to build from scratch and have tooling in the works.

 

[NIKAL]

I fully understand what you are saying and I fully understand how it would benefit the vehicle itself. However I fully understand that you could kiss every bit of OEM support bye bye..

I'm really trying to understand why would the OEM's pull out if you remove the last 25% of factory frame which no one see's? You would still run OEM suspension specs for your brand & model. You would still run OEM engines & drive train. You would still run factory branding front hood and rear fenders. (Actually some are running aftermarket hoods & body's like the Glazzkraft kits which seem to be legal) The suspension concept & design would match the OEM for that model.

My original thought was that this would not only save money upfront and in long term maintenance, but might be better for the OEM's as you could possibly have less DNF's due to chassis damage. But maybe I'm way wrong in this thought? For example the Redlands guys that I went to help at the Mint. They damaged the front suspension. We looked to get replacement arms, but soon found the a-arm tabs & front bulk head were all bent up. Even if we got a spare upper & lower a-arm there was no way to get them all bolted back up.

Joey or anyone else can you tell me what is the rules in regards to repairing or replacing damaged stock suspension pivot point mounting locations? I cant find any, so I assume you can fab and replace them yourself, and you do not need to replace the suspension points with a factory OEM frame. Could Cognito fab new front suspension mounting points for Paul Cooper's car that we watched roll on the video? Or will they have to cut out the front factory frame and weld in a new factory frame?

 

[the stripping shop]

yes you can fab your own mounting points, jaggy did on one of there builds. the reason they don't post any pics of there builds either. You can build your own frame is a waste of time the manufacter will change for the newest and different utv every 2 years is the average. Hell look at the can am 2013 is already different the 2015, Polaris is releasing a new vehicle out in june how different will it be. I know on Polaris 1000 you can buy front and rear section for vehicle it bolts together if you destroy front or rear end.

 

[Bajaxp]

Todd, the only person who can answer your question definitively is Cory, and he said he isn't coming on here anymore. You can call him and ask, but I am pretty certain that he would allow someone to replace the tab pick up points without replacing the whole frame, as long as it mimics the factory tabs. This is reasonable and replacing a whole frame is not reasonable, plus there wouldn't be any performance gain. Most of the top teams already gusset the stock pick up points so they don't have the issue that you had, but you have to remember that if you hit something hard enough, eventually something has to give, so having a 'fuse' somewhere isn't a bad thing.

I hear all the time that our desert race Ute's are not close enough to stock, so going further away from stock isn't going to help things or enamor the class with the OEM's. Right now the rule recipe is pretty good and the class is growing quickly, WITH OEM involvement. Let's not mess up a good thing. It is significantly easier and less expensive to build a race vehicle based off of a complete car than trying to sort through a microfiche part number by part number. There are lots of ways to get the complete car to start with for less money: buy a well taken care of used one, get a deal from a dealer, or if you have really good race race results, one of the OEM's might sell you one either through a dealer or even directly at a discount. If you are a champion, or consistent podium dweller, you might even earn the gold standard which is getting free cars and parts. The current rules do make the fabricator sit down and really think. Personally I believe this is a good thing as it adds creativity to the class. Some use more and some use less of the stock frame, but everyone has to stay within the rules or their build was for naught. My 2 pesos.

 

[george.felix]

Todd, the only person who can answer your question definitively is Cory, and he said he isn't coming on here anymore. You can call him and ask, but I am pretty certain that he would allow someone to replace the tab pick up points without replacing the whole frame, as long as it mimics the factory tabs. This is reasonable and replacing a whole frame is not reasonable, plus there wouldn't be any performance gain. Most of the top teams already gusset the stock pick up points so they don't have the issue that you had, but you have to remember that if you hit something hard enough, eventually something has to give, so having a 'fuse' somewhere isn't a bad thing.

I hear all the time that our desert race Ute's are not close enough to stock, so going further away from stock isn't going to help things or enamor the class with the OEM's. Right now the rule recipe is pretty good and the class is growing quickly, WITH OEM involvement. Let's not mess up a good thing. It is significantly easier and less expensive to build a race vehicle based off of a complete car than trying to sort through a microfiche part number by part number. There are lots of ways to get the complete car to start with for less money: buy a well taken care of used one, get a deal from a dealer, or if you have really good race race results, one of the OEM's might sell you one either through a dealer or even directly at a discount. If you are a champion, or consistent podium dweller, you might even earn the gold standard which is getting free cars and parts. The current rules do make the fabricator sit down and really think. Personally I believe this is a good thing as it adds creativity to the class. Some use more and some use less of the stock frame, but everyone has to stay within the rules or their build was for naught. My 2 pesos.

You can ask Cory OR can just read the rule book....so many threads I'm confused which one dealt w the rules but the book needs to be thought thru and if needed modified so it's self explanatory.

UTV-7 SHOCK ABSORBERS:

Pro Production UTV class There must be at least one and only one coil over shock absorber per wheel in working condition at the start of the race. Shock absorber mounting points may be moved and strengthen.

Unlimited UTV class Two shocks per wheel is allowed. Shocks can be mounted in any position.

 

[rockstarcustomz]

I fully understand what you are saying and I fully understand how it would benefit the vehicle itself. However I fully understand that you could kiss every bit of OEM support bye bye..

I agree that the Manufactures would no longer support us if we just build our own. Sure it makes sense, since we use bare minimum of the factory frame, but it's still a frame with a factory Vin, purchased from Polaris. Yes you can repair and replace mounting tabs. We have done it multiple times with our 800. If we start building our own chassis, it will be just another buggy class. We have always done our best to make our cars look factory as possible using all the stock plastics. We trim here and there but my car still looks like an XP1K. If you want to build a custom buggy, move to another class. Just my 2 pesos as MP would say.

 

[NIKAL]

Todd, the only person who can answer your question definitively is Cory, and he said he isn't coming on here anymore. You can call him and ask, but I am pretty certain that he would allow someone to replace the tab pick up points without replacing the whole frame, as long as it mimics the factory tabs. This is reasonable and replacing a whole frame is not reasonable, plus there wouldn't be any performance gain. Most of the top teams already gusset the stock pick up points so they don't have the issue that you had, but you have to remember that if you hit something hard enough, eventually something has to give, so having a 'fuse' somewhere isn't a bad thing.

I hear all the time that our desert race Ute's are not close enough to stock, so going further away from stock isn't going to help things or enamor the class with the OEM's. Right now the rule recipe is pretty good and the class is growing quickly, WITH OEM involvement. Let's not mess up a good thing. It is significantly easier and less expensive to build a race vehicle based off of a complete car than trying to sort through a microfiche part number by part number. There are lots of ways to get the complete car to start with for less money: buy a well taken care of used one, get a deal from a dealer, or if you have really good race race results, one of the OEM's might sell you one either through a dealer or even directly at a discount. If you are a champion, or consistent podium dweller, you might even earn the gold standard which is getting free cars and parts. The current rules do make the fabricator sit down and really think. Personally I believe this is a good thing as it adds creativity to the class. Some use more and some use less of the stock frame, but everyone has to stay within the rules or their build was for naught. My 2 pesos.

Thanks for the reply Matt. Trust me I dont want to mess up a good thing either, and I agree what the UTV class has going is good right now. But we also know you have to continue to evolve. We both agree that tire size is clearly holding this class back and its only a matter of time before tire size has to be looked at.

Regarding the frame issue, the main reason I have been bring it up is I have spoke to a few teams who have made comments about it. Two well established race car builders in our sport who both have questioned the small section of stock frame used, the cost to buy a new turn key vehicle from a dealership to only tear it apart and use just a fraction of what you paid for. Neither builder was looking at make a custom lower frame that used optimal geometry, just a cheaper aftermarket part that would duplicate the factory specs, so that you would or could not have to buy and use such a small section of stock frame. It was truly a cost savings idea, and not something to eliminate the OEM's. We all know its the OEM's that have pushed this class to where it is today.

Also regarding replacing the pivot point tabs on the chassis, its good to know that anyone can fix or replace them, but is anyone checking to make sure they are identical to factory specs? Its amazing what a few degree's can do to geometry and how the suspension travel can be altered. We all learned the hard way when the 1600 & 5/1600 guys found out that rotating the inner rear trailing arm pivot a few degree's, got more travel, and kept the wheel from having as much camber change through the wheel cycle. So many did it that instead of DQ'ing those cars, Art with Score just changed the rules. Which was the wrong thing to do.

Matt, like me you have been around long enough in this sport to remember when the OEM's were in the Full size & Mini truck classes. Everyone was jumping in the class 8, 8s, 7 & 7s classes. As soon as the OEM's pulled out the class got to expensive and 90% of the racers left for other classes. I just don't want to see that happen in the next few years with the UTV class, but we all know the OEM's will eventually cut back or leave. I would like to see the UTV class become the modern day class 1600. I dont know if that is ever going to be possible due to all the factory specs you must keep vs a 1600 car where everyone has the same rules, and even an older car can still be competitive in any series. But the idea of having longevity in this class would be awesome and not to look back and think of this class as just a fad. This class will get more expensive and to be honest a 1600, 12 or even a class 10 car could and probably will become more appealing for some current UTV racers in the future.

Matt what would you think of making a Pump Gas or Compression rule to help control the engine costs? We know as of right now the stock engine with a stage 2 cam & programer on pump gas seems to be just as competitive as the full blown high compression race gas engine's, but for how long? Would it be batter to lay down a solid foundation regarding the engine, or leave it open as it is now and let the future control what happens? Would it be better for the OEM's to have as close to stock engines as possible to showcase their true showroom performance?

And like Reid said I dont have a "dog in the fight", so at the end of the day my ideas are just that, ideas.They will not effect me one way or the other. Actually the class dying could be a better thing for me as it would probably help revive some of the limited classes that have been dying off over the last few years!

 

[BrianReno]

I don't think MP races a polaris anymore.

The farewell message from Jagged on the roof at the Mint, I wonder if we will hear from Mr. Parks himself as to what the future holds?

 

[wireguy]

It appears that there is a concern that the OEM's might leave the sport and with that teams would lose thier support. I've been involved with desert racing since the late 70's racing, building, prepping and pitting for everything from Class 11 and class 9's to class 1's and trucks and everything in between. I have recently wandered into the UTV world by getting involved in a UTV build and am curious how many teams actually get factory support. Of the 60 plus cars entered in the Mint 400 I would hazzard a guess that only a handful of teams recieve any support and most teams are on thier own. Is this the case or do most teams recieve support?

 

[Queen Racing]

[

Matt what would you think of making a Pump Gas or Compression rule to help control the engine costs? We know as of right now the stock engine with a stage 2 cam & programer on pump gas seems to be just as competitive as the full blown high compression race gas engine's, but for how long? Would it be batter to lay down a solid foundation regarding the engine, or leave it open as it is now and let the future control what happens? Would it be better for the OEM's to have as close to stock engines as possible to showcase their true showroom performance?


THIS IS A HORRIBLE IDEA, ILL TELL YOU WHY! THIS WILL ONLY MAKE THINGS MORE EXPENSIVE! LIKE, LIGHT WEIGHT BILLET CRANKS, TITANIUM CONNECTING RODS, TITANIUM EVERYTHING ETC ETC.. THE COST WILL ONLY GO UP ON ENGINE BUILDS AND MAKE THE WEALTHY TEAMS DOMINATE! IM ALL FOR IT AS A ENGINE BUILDER, BUT THAT'S NOT SMART FOR THE AVERAGE RACE TEAMS.

 

[JoeyD23]

It appears that there is a concern that the OEM's might leave the sport and with that teams would lose thier support. I've been involved with desert racing since the late 70's racing, building, prepping and pitting for everything from Class 11 and class 9's to class 1's and trucks and everything in between. I have recently wandered into the UTV world by getting involved in a UTV build and am curious how many teams actually get factory support. Of the 60 plus cars entered in the Mint 400 I would hazzard a guess that only a handful of teams recieve any support and most teams are on thier own. Is this the case or do most teams recieve support?

Its not just the race support they give racers, which is a lot. Its sponsoring The Mint 400, BITD, SCORE, UTV World Championship, Video Content, etc etc etc. I fear it for obvious reasons, we activate for them on a ton of this stuff. The day they lose interest because the class changes from being a production based class to a mini buggy its a trickle down affect. I lose, racers lose, the sport loses, aftermarket companies lose, etc etc etc. One of the biggest draws to the UTV class is in fact that there is Factory Support. We don't want to lose that.

It should be noted, that polaris has a racer discount purchase program. If you intend to race, you can purchase a RZR on discount. That would also go away.