Racers burned at Lucerne

It's sourcing, period. Unfortunately you get what you pay for and manufactures find every conceivable way of reducing costs to increase profits. If you compare the components that are used in main stream (on road) automotive production, you will quickly see that they do not differ. Unfortunately sourcing products designed for on road use does not address the sever duty and abuse that today's UTV's are subjected to. Legacy, although manufactures should bear some responsibility, and should continue to develop a better product, anything can and will happen in an off road environment. It really is up to the end user to assure their own safety, (Team Green) is all over it.
Regards,

I agree with the responsibility being ours. We also have to credit the aftermarket for stating the obvious with their offerings. A mistake that i made which I hope others don't replicate is spending literally thousands of dollars not even on performance enhancements but on non safety-related reliability. If I were to do it again (and people should be warned that this is an extremely expensive sport) I would spend safety-related first (period) and spent a good share of my time fine tooth combing my machine/reading the forums first for what to look for...which is pretty difficult to do without threads such as this one or (sadly) when shaking down brand new Textron XXs for the Baja 1000.

Together (and in partnership with the aftermarket) we can make this sport at least as safe as it could be using both what the machine's consist of, the aftermarket, ingenuity and what we know to be true given the product's limitations.
 
I would also concur with those who pointed to the inordinate number of hands on any modified car coupled with the experience set involving all cars (no particular incidents past or present referenced here).
Comparing this to an ultralight aircraft that I used to own and fly; it is that important (I didn't want anybody even touching it) in terms of our 'preflighting' and our basic wrenching skills. A lot of younger people working hard all of their life to afford one of these weekend machines or who are working on a crew simply weren't blessed with the simple knowledge of how things go together or even what the limitations of what any part manipulated or tool used might be.

This lack of real world experience causes many of these non social media discussions to become invaluable to more fellow community members than one might imagine. We all learn when we all share.
 
Getting old naturally causes us to ponder more the passing down of what we have learned. These cars are about as good of a tool for doing that or better than what we worked on while blessed with many more (affordable) acceptable quality OEM boneyard parts as templates or modification bases.
 
In the interest of jumpstarting long needed discussions involving our car fuel system safety issues, let's start here. (Disclaimer: We are merely trying to help each other here and not sleuth out past tragedies nationwide not provable nor by virtue of the latter helpful):

Are there any 'plastic' parts anywhere in fuel systems on any car that we all own? How about just plain sketchy as compared to what it probably should be?

What were the detailed reasons for the aftermarket offering billet fuel rails?

What fuel system issues are inherent in any car out there and what has the aftermarket done or plain ingenuity solved to make this critical system safer over time?

If we don't step up here and (minimum) talk about these issues as these lightly built cars get faster and faster (wait until the hybrids or pure EVs take over) God is going to ask us at least 'why' if we don't ask ourselves (first) in this life. We are in control of just how safe these cars can be made and responsible for getting the word out on just how this can be done.
 
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Looked at my YXZ - yup - plastic fuel rail, and plastic lines, injector bodies, fittings, pump, tank etc. Is it an issue - who knows. But consider the auto industry uses the same technology with minimal issues. Then to the average Honda does not experience the vibration or flying debris a SxS gets.

In becomes my personal responsibility to decide if it needs to be upgraded to an aluminum rail with some AN fittings and lines. And maybe a manual fuel pump shut off.

Interesting comparison the the ultralight aircraft industry.
 
As you probably know, the ultralight industry exploded when Rotax engine power and tubular frame geometry advanced allowing two passenger placement just as it did with the first Rhino and Rzr in the early century UTV market which followed. Fortunately, most new UL enthusiasts were mentored by a flying community already well versed in not only acceptable manufacturing techniques and materials but preflighting as a no-brainer/must-do. When you are tie-wiring everything down (including anything-but-plastic fuel fasteners) life suddenly gets very real.

If we refuse to instill this same training, safety and operation culture involving cars which fly through the air in to our next generation..who are we all, really?
Again, I am no different. All of my extra money initially went in to fixing what I felt the manufacturer (inexcusably) engineered involving everything but safety save a fire extinguisher. I have basically 'scoffed' at what previous generations meticulously embraced while holding my UTV's door open for my wife and anybody else who was ignorant of this thread's contents. If an old school aircraft pilot with even a cursory glance at our OEM fuel systems frankly spoke with each of my passengers beforehand? Most of my them wouldn't even climb in with me and probably shouldn't.

Who has the best components? Who solves the fuel system issues A to Z on every manufacturer's car and does it the best? Who has come up with their own fixes using parts from elsewhere?
And why won't we all discuss these answers in detail or with fervor given all that we have witnessed to date?
 
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...any difference between these two designs? Any others out there? Who is racing what, to what extent and why?
#1 https://www.alternativeoffroad.com/...let-Polaris-RZR-XP1000-Fuel-Rail-_p_3737.html (are the manufacturers of these still in business?)
#2 https://www.empireindustriesinc.com/product-p/emp-xpt-fr.htm

I hope that this thread isn't referenced in the future in terms of the willingness of fellow enthusiasts (and/or heaven forbid the racing community) to help each other out after the sport apparently when 'dark' due to most teams using (censored) social media only.

Then again, most conversations involving utv safety in general over the years have been met with less than their rightful due. Why is that?
 
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...so if fuel system modifications are not the #1 safety-related item on any new owner's list of things to consider...and with the racing 'community' (or at least the majority racing save the few who have commented previously on this matter) being traditionally unresponsive in terms of what 'they' are running in these newly released cars or any other...what are the top 3 safety considerations for your average new owner beyond the obvious?

Our kids are going to look back on previous detailed conversations here involving issues such as age restrictions, nerfing, non-standardized bumper design, (etc.) and wonder why the top names in this sport were once willing to comment on everything under the sun save the most obvious involving out-of-the-crate mod issues today.
 
Rails are good designs - only so many ways to make them. Did notice that some vendors have AN style hoses (Teflon-stainless braid) and fittings that work with those rails. Aviation fire sleeve is good stuff to.

My top 3 safety concerns - 5pt belts, cage, fire extinguisher. Will ride this weekend and not give my plastic rail a thought.

Then again, most conversations involving utv safety in general over the years have been met with less than their rightful due. Why is that?

1. Most racers has been nose deep in prepping and racing in Baja - it will be slow around here until well after Turkey day.

2. UTVUG and forums are a tiny slice of the UTV market and media scene. This issue (and many more) are discussed by many, usually at the shop and among friends, just not on here. See below.

3. Facts - lawyers - aggravation. No one knows exactly what the issue is / was. The fuel rail issue is speculation at best, no team is going say "this is the issue with what ever model and we solved it". Lawyers would show up, sponsorship would leave, all the internet experts will hand out lots ridicule. This is a fun (expensive) hobby for most, who in their right mind wants that agravation.

4. Personal responsibility - if you want to own / race a SxS, you are responsible for the build, your safety and better do some homework. The demands of instant gratification and all the answers do not usually work in off road racing.

5. Carrots & honey vs sticks $ poo - shaming anyone in to doing something never works.
 
5. Carrots & honey vs sticks $ poo - shaming anyone in to doing something never works.

Thanks for sharing....(my obligatory "carrot/honey" response grudgingly offered in a politically correct world created by my generation to cover our collective arses).

A quick story.
A friend of mine went to a meeting last night where a young lady was featured who has had the guts to stand up for her local water supply being poisoned by decades of past and even present (obvious) industrial pollution. Her town's well head was located but a stone's throw from a wastewater treatment plant on the banks of the most polluted river in the area and had a creek running over the well which is regularly polluted to this day.
The entire town knew that they were sitting on a ticking time bomb save a younger generation who never witnessed her river running every color of the rainbow. Those who could warn her were either dead, moved away or presently keeping their mouths shut to preserve their property values and not necessarily drinking the water.
This woman was brought to the point of wavering voice and tears over the reality that her newly born daughter had been exposed to what my generation still refuses to talk about. Why would we? A good share of us frankly having the money to avoid what she and her child have lived through every single day!
Lay her story on top of our story and you have the exact same issue: A bunch of privileged nose-in-the-air 'enthusiasts' unwilling to even so much as POINT to a life threatening problem let alone SOLVE it due to this problem not being 'our' problem. Or better put:
"But by the grace of God (who wouldn't want me to help anyways) there go I"

My generation created/nurtured 'snowflakes' due to successive generations of hardened hail figuratively falling on us before judgment time being somewhat problematic. We are masters of the Oz-like pay-no-attention-to-(anything) PC-correct-or-we'lll-destroy-you mindset with a specialty degree in the massive debt required to (barely) get us all out of here unscathed.

We don't need to keep sincerely thanking people for their sacrifice in bringing further attention to safety issues in our sport. If you further believe that ANYBODY is going to change without threads like this one given what we continue to witness our own suffer through you are just plain mistaken.

Carrots and honey (nor sticks and pooh) did not motivate that EPA official to blink an eye or spring in to action when he was told in front of a whole town that a visibly polluted river was running right over the town's water source to their river for literally decades. What I hear today (or more importantly not) is the same strategy that MY generation uses when our neighbor's well being is in the balance:

Don't talk about it.
Fix it yourself (hey, i heat treated and mirror polished my entire car to separate myself from everybody else..why should i bother with throwing them that mere safety-related bone?)
...and in keeping with an entire 'clique' running away from this site over simply discussing safety issues (period)...
Move just as far away from those suffering anything in a community you no longer have any allegiance to or stake in as humanly possible.

Disclaimer: This opinion was delivered in a high temperature manner not conducive to snowflake or honey coated ears.
 
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"...Rails are good designs - only so many ways to make them. Did notice that some vendors have AN style hoses (Teflon-stainless braid) and fittings that work with those rails. Aviation fire sleeve is good stuff to.

I would argue that there are an infinite number of ways to manufacture fuel rails with only designs actually working on machines designed to fly through the air being relevant to us. If there are nay others which aren't designed for this...we need to talk about it for obvious reasons.

"...My top 3 safety concerns - 5pt belts, cage, fire extinguisher. Will ride this weekend and not give my plastic rail a thought..."
Not arguing with your picks but mine would center around safety improvements designed to prevent me from using either of those legitimate in the first place (especially the fire extinguisher and the cage).
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"...Most racers has been nose deep in prepping and racing in Baja - it will be slow around here until well after Turkey day.

I'm just not of the opinion that those currently racing the Baja 1000 compromise the entire brain trust needed to discuss anything in this sport. If we all had to wait for someone who has been threatened to not post here and/or who has switched to social media due to obvious reasons...we wouldn't get much accomplished, would we? There are plenty of other people in this world racing and just plain shade tree fabricating who aren't in Mexico right now and...by the way...we all just didn't fall off the back of the turnip truck ;)


"...UTVUG and forums are a tiny slice of the UTV market and media scene. This issue (and many more) are discussed by many, usually at the shop and among friends, just not on here. See below.

The last I checked, UTVUG was the #1 source for unfiltered information regarding what was going on anywhere in the utv scene when one looks at the entire sport as a whole. If there are legitimate/meaningful discussions surrounding safety taking place in shops and among friends by those afraid to have them up here where their buddy won't necessarily slap them on the back while handing them a beer?...that is obviously unfortunate (yet how could that be with a younger generation chock full of participation trophy winners?). The point of this thread is to extract at least some of those conversations and to post them up here for the sake of or kids someday purchasing a machine that they will know absolutely nothing about in terms of the safety modifications possibly needed.

".... Facts - lawyers - aggravation. No one knows exactly what the issue is / was. The fuel rail issue is speculation at best, no team is going say "this is the issue with what ever model and we solved it". Lawyers would show up, sponsorship would leave, all the internet experts will hand out lots ridicule. This is a fun (expensive) hobby for most, who in their right mind wants that agravation.

We all know what the issue is (there is no 'was' about it) and you just described in but one paragraph what is wrong with this sport and our world in general. "I've got mine. Helping YOU would jeopardize what I already have. YOU are not worth even the general health or safety involving thousands let alone whoever bothers to educate themselves on a forum. Again, I've got mine..."I" know how to safely modify my flying car...if YOU don't???...well then that's your family's problem because my family doesn't play that game of fuel safety roulette.

"...Personal responsibility - if you want to own / race a SxS, you are responsible for the build, your safety and better do some homework. The demands of instant gratification and all the answers do not usually work in off road racing...."

This thread is the average (peon) SxS owner's homework assignment.
Unfortunately, the teachers with the experience and the textbook writers forcing them to keep their mouths shut are not exactly the best tutors at this point in the sport's history.
 
...by the way, who exactly is our collective community 'sugar daddy' expecting all this "honey" to be thrown all over them for OEM or aftermarket safety-related fuel system changes/upgrades anytime soon? Is a 'kiss of the ring' now the standard springboard for innovation versus obvious need or even tragedy?

..and how exactly do #1 and #3 (above) 'jive' when the supposed calvary in #1 (this week's Baja 1000 racers) are 'just over the horizon'...yet due to 'fact' #3 (their collective hands somehow hopelessly tied) we will indeed never witness them riding to the rescue(?).

So there are only (how many?) options for complete fuel system upgrades out there...none out there which mere average SxS owners themselves have come up with...and the monied or sponsored calvary' will show up any second now.

Thank goodness.
 

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