the stripping shop
RACER - UTVUnderground Approved
I wonder what the rule is for 2017 I guess everyone will wait tell new year lol
BITD Fire
- Thread starter Bajaxp
- Start date
BiggJim
I Hate Rules - UTVUnderground Approved
If I were a Bet'n man....I'd say it just to follow the 2016 rules
ndvalium
New Member
First off my sincere apologies as I was not aware that a thread I started on RDC got mentioned over here and I rarely have the opportunity to catch up on all the forums. Let me clarify and answer a few of the questions for the general good of the situation. UTV teams should get a detailed email from Cory as well very soon explaining what is going on.
First off, my role is Rescue Director for Best in the Desert as well as operating Motorsports Safety Solutions that provides all of the Fire, Rescue and EMS teams for all BITD races.. Last year myself and Tech Director Daryl Putnum re-wrote much of the rule book for BITD with the input and guidance of many people and industry experts assisting.
What I was not aware of was that for some reason BITD maintains 2 rule books for vehicle classes. a Car/ Truck rule book and an UTV rule book. The first 33 pages of "General Rules" apply to all vehicles (not MC/QUAD). This is something quite frankly I would like to see changed in the near future as I think it creates more of the divide that already exists between UTV and other classes.
So that falls on myself and Daryl that we did not communicate to Cory that we made significant changes and his book did not automatically get taken care of as a result.
The expectation for 2016 was that UTV teams, like all other vehicle classes would fall into compliance with this change. UTV's are responsible for as many fires as any other class and your safety while in and working around them is essential to your safety as well as the benefit of the sport.
So fast forward to 2017 -
Parker is 3 weeks away. It is unrealistic to even imagine that teams that were unaware of the change would be held accountable. Furthermore, we want to give a better grace period than just a couple months as this will have a financial impact for all teams. So a meeting took place Monday and the determination was this:
2017, UTV teams will become compliant and held accountable to the rules as of the Vegas to Reno race and going forward from then. My team of medics will be conducting inspections of pits at all races throughout the year. We will help teams understand the rules and give them detailed inspection forms. Non compliance will be progressive from warnings to time penalties. It isn't our goal to ever hit anyone for a penalty and we wont be looking for failures. We simply want everyone to be as safe as they can in an extreme environment.
Much of the changes and rule updates are to make Best in the Desert compliant with SFI standards with we are now an affiliate member of.
Some have asked about MC/Quad guys and this is an area we have not touched yet. MC / Quad gear is actually a pain in the butt in this situation as it is not only flammable, but melts and adheres to skin. They are being held to fuel containment and fire extinguisher requirements only at this time.
Ok - Hope that helps with some clarification.
First off, my role is Rescue Director for Best in the Desert as well as operating Motorsports Safety Solutions that provides all of the Fire, Rescue and EMS teams for all BITD races.. Last year myself and Tech Director Daryl Putnum re-wrote much of the rule book for BITD with the input and guidance of many people and industry experts assisting.
What I was not aware of was that for some reason BITD maintains 2 rule books for vehicle classes. a Car/ Truck rule book and an UTV rule book. The first 33 pages of "General Rules" apply to all vehicles (not MC/QUAD). This is something quite frankly I would like to see changed in the near future as I think it creates more of the divide that already exists between UTV and other classes.
So that falls on myself and Daryl that we did not communicate to Cory that we made significant changes and his book did not automatically get taken care of as a result.
The expectation for 2016 was that UTV teams, like all other vehicle classes would fall into compliance with this change. UTV's are responsible for as many fires as any other class and your safety while in and working around them is essential to your safety as well as the benefit of the sport.
So fast forward to 2017 -
Parker is 3 weeks away. It is unrealistic to even imagine that teams that were unaware of the change would be held accountable. Furthermore, we want to give a better grace period than just a couple months as this will have a financial impact for all teams. So a meeting took place Monday and the determination was this:
2017, UTV teams will become compliant and held accountable to the rules as of the Vegas to Reno race and going forward from then. My team of medics will be conducting inspections of pits at all races throughout the year. We will help teams understand the rules and give them detailed inspection forms. Non compliance will be progressive from warnings to time penalties. It isn't our goal to ever hit anyone for a penalty and we wont be looking for failures. We simply want everyone to be as safe as they can in an extreme environment.
Much of the changes and rule updates are to make Best in the Desert compliant with SFI standards with we are now an affiliate member of.
Some have asked about MC/Quad guys and this is an area we have not touched yet. MC / Quad gear is actually a pain in the butt in this situation as it is not only flammable, but melts and adheres to skin. They are being held to fuel containment and fire extinguisher requirements only at this time.
Ok - Hope that helps with some clarification.
JoeyD23
#utvunderground
I was talking about being it right after Pahrump but not sure anyone caught on. This was from my Pahrump story..
"With just over 40 UTVs on the entry list for the 2016 Pahrump 250 the stage was set. Like all BITD events, a day of tech and contingency was held prior to race day. News spread around the UTV teams that for 2017 they no longer will have to pay an additional tech fee to the UTVRA. While Cory Sappington will remain as tech director of the UTV classes, he no longer will operate under the UTVRA. Casey Folks explained to me personally a couple weeks prior that this change he hoped would alleviate some of the racers frustrations with Sappington and the process of which UTV racers have to go through in regards to technical inspection. While I along with many others still see Cory Sappington’s role a major conflict of interest (he is also a factory backed Can-Am competitor in the class) I do still understand and respect Folk’s decision. With that said, I also respect Sappington as a major player in the development of the class and think of him personally as an honest guy. While he and I have a split relationship right now, I am able to put that aside and still respect him and his accomplishments within our class. Sappington also entered this race coming off of a win at the Bluewater Desert Challenge but his day at Pahrump ended early when his Maverick Turbo suffered a mechanical. We were told his machine was involved in a vehicle fire at race mile 107 but that has yet to be confirmed."
ndvalium
New Member
I accept 100% ownership on this Joey. It was not Cory's responsibility to know that we had re-written the rule book. We never notified him and I made the assumption that the UTV rule book was stuff that pertained to UTV only and was not aware the "general" section was carried over from the car / truck book to it so it formed its own freestanding book. I never looked at it and that is on me. I am still very much after 5 years in with BITD trying to take a more active and aggressive role in safety of all racers so that is why I got involved with rule changes, pit inspections, and will be trying to add my team into the tech process as well for all classes.
We are correcting this and that is why UTV teams will have a further grace period.
All I can do is say I screwed up and move forward.
JoeyD23
#utvunderground
Copy that Dave!! On another note, I will be in touch soon about that thing we spoke about at V2R...
It'sYourLegacy
Banned Por Vida
Grace periods are for those who just fell off the turnip truck or for those who claim 'now' to have "not known any better" for all these years after witnessing every other racer on the planet protect their very own teammates and sometimes family in the pit area.
"Pain in the butt" perpetual grace periods for MC/Quad crew members (NOT owners/drivers who, like UTV owners/drivers/co-pilots, aren't put NEAR as much in harms way) only solidifies the overall:
"Gee, we (all) never knew!!!" long glaring arrogant/selfish attitude towards safety (others) in all three sports.
Either not run one race until everybody in it is 110% safe...
...or copy this thread and hand it to the family of the next person injured, maimed or killed due to safety in all 3 classes (now) becoming a "financial impact" or "pain in the butt" for those "unaware" that safety has been nothing but a spun buzzword in every single team and driver meeting previous.
"Bafoons" Joey???
How about spoiled kids not giving a damn about anyone but themselves while proving it by throwing the dice with other people's lives and then claiming ignorance (all along) or 'poverty' afterwards.
Fix it NOW or (better yet) simply delete this post. (which I sincerely believe you will not for the thankful sake of getting a good number of owners off their arses TODAY absent any current legitimate safety program in these 3 sports whatsoever).
No such thing as 110% safe in racing or life for that matter.
ndvalium
New Member
Can you point to me to any form of fire retardant motorcycle riding gear and helmet rated for both fire and MC crashes.
This is the challenge. It simply does not exist right now in our market. This goes back greater than 10 years when a MC rider was burned in California and filed a 75 million dollar court case against a gear manufacturer. the gear hasnt changed even with that.
I can appreciate your passion and concern sincerely. I really do but to my knowledge the solution does not exist. That is what makes that part of the problem a pain. It is a problem without viable solution. The only fire retardant gear is full leather gear, and that is not feasible and does not offer the flexibility that desert racers need. I believe that would result in more accidents and injuries than a potential fire that in my 20 years I have not had to treat one rider of.
MC/ Quad gear is designed to give range and movement to the rider for comfort and safety. Fire suits are designed for safety only. I have seen drivers / co-drivers rip their suits from the simple act of getting in and out of a race car. It is not designed to provide extreme flexibility the way mc gear is.
On the positive side, mc / quad riders have a much faster ability to remove themselves from the hazard should it occur.
We will never eliminate hazards in this sport. We can address those that we can minimize and that is what we are trying to do. While I am sorry you disagree, we will move forward and we will make positive changes for those areas we can.
I am sorry that you disagree with the grace period being offered and I believe that while their will be frustration and many complaints, teams will comply as demonstrated in the other classes that were properly notified last year of the changes. I can see from the other post that was copied that you wrote that you remain critical of Best in the Desert and I completely respect that. I welcome and embrace criticism as that is often what triggers growth and knowledge. We will continue to do our best for our racers, our series and our sport overall. If you are that passionate may I encourage you to complain to Casey. It is his series and ultimately his decision how everything operates. He answers his own phone in the office a majority of the time.
As a side note, I am encouraged by a call I got yesterday that may offer at least a start to some better training options. Stay tuned for more on that in the near future.
It'sYourLegacy
Banned Por Vida
The statement above proves that this racing series (let alone "duh, we just didn't realize" owners) has never had any intention of properly protecting those handling the fueling of motorcycles, quads or utvs in any desert series since...when?
You ask these poor bastards to believe that not only those they work for (or are related to) in conjunction with those running the show/half-arse pretending to run a "safety program" should somehow get away with the following???:
"...Last year myself and Tech Director Daryl Putnum re-wrote much of the rule book for BITD with the input and guidance of many people and industry experts assisting.
What I was not aware of was that for some reason BITD maintains 2 rule books for vehicle classes. a Car/ Truck rule book and an UTV rule book. The first 33 pages of "General Rules" apply to all vehicles (not MC/QUAD). This is something quite frankly I would like to see changed in the near future as I think it creates more of the divide that already exists between UTV and other classes.
So that falls on myself and Daryl that we did not communicate to Cory that we made significant changes and his book did not automatically get taken care of as a result.
The expectation for 2016 was that UTV teams, like all other vehicle classes would fall into compliance with this change. UTV's are responsible for as many fires as any other class and your safety while in and working around them is essential to your safety as well as the benefit of the sport..."
So you gather the 'experts' around...leave out the only guy who can actually communicate anything to those affected by any changes...expect everybody to be SAFE and race around these changed rules...and then come back with:
"..'Sorry' about that!!!...yet we sure would like to run your UTV racing safety program moving forward, as we feel very strongly that we have long communicated to the youth of these three sports the true professionalism actually needed to bring change forward and what legitimate safety legacies are truly made of when it comes time for THEM to build these programs for their children as well..".
I am glad that you welcome criticism.
As of right now?
I wouldn't hire you guys to run my kid's T-ball team.
Every manufacturer, team owner and race sponsor should be asking what in the heck just went down here and who exactly is responsible well before the flag drops at Parker.
If they don't?
Then "we just forgot" (for an entire season) or "my oh my..we did not know that MCs, quads and UTVs were (forever) playing by different safety rules nor how dangerous this has been!!"...will be the only excuse available from Parker to the first disqualification (necessarily) handed out.
There IS no middle ground when it comes to safety nor "grace periods" for those who suffer from the incompetence or just plain cheapskate tendencies of those sponsoring, overseeing or ultimately running lower budget racing programs.
Argue anything else to those left behind.
Dave, Ignore Its Your Legacy. Not only is he a hypocrite (He's promised multiple times that, it was his last post, yet he keeps posting. He's not even a man of his own words!) Sometimes wonder if he is not MO? His wording seems more intelligent so I don't think so? But he is just an argumentative Troll that contributes nothing. He claims to like the sport, but everything is wrong with it. If he has kids, and if they do play ball, can you imagine how the coaches and even his kid must feel? Because he probably acts the same way with them, he does nothing but complain.
It'sYourLegacy
Banned Por Vida
...and if the call isn't being very PUBLICLY being put out on a CONSTANT basis to solve here-to-before-'unsolvable' safety issues involving MCs and quads?
...then i can guarantee that 99.9% of those out there who might, could or would possibly build a business around SOLVING this 'secret problem' will never come forward with a solution whether they solve it themselves or not.
Safety only breeds innovation when safety is respected and it is past time that the manufacturers in this sport quit receiving a 'pass' on that very subject while they spend millions on over-the-top advertising or simply throwing money at 'fresh face' racing programs minus any heart, soul or look to the future involving our children's racing education, safety or even simple 'legacy' whatsoever.
...then i can guarantee that 99.9% of those out there who might, could or would possibly build a business around SOLVING this 'secret problem' will never come forward with a solution whether they solve it themselves or not.
Safety only breeds innovation when safety is respected and it is past time that the manufacturers in this sport quit receiving a 'pass' on that very subject while they spend millions on over-the-top advertising or simply throwing money at 'fresh face' racing programs minus any heart, soul or look to the future involving our children's racing education, safety or even simple 'legacy' whatsoever.
It'sYourLegacy
Banned Por Vida
Ignore away, Nikal...as it will be our kids who will pay when they have absolutely no one to look up to while straddling a 500 HP golf cart with absolutely no safety legacy to build on or obviously be proud of.
Racing legacies aren't 'bought' as this generation seems to believe...they are BUILT.
Racing legacies aren't 'bought' as this generation seems to believe...they are BUILT.
ndvalium
New Member
And after a 6 year court battle, a jury awarded a complainant 45 million dollars in 2006 for burns received while wearing MC gear and riding in the open desert.
2016 and we still don't have fire resistant MC gear available to people. Manufactures do not make it.
I appreciate your other criticisms and insults and will continue to try harder. If you would like to take my role or have me removed, please contact Casey. 702-457-4516
Until then, I will keep doing the best that I can and making this sport safer.
If any one needs me directly:
David Nehrbass
Motorsports Safety Solutions
racesafely@gmail.com
702-278-0895
Ps - I am not available for little league games -
It'sYourLegacy
Banned Por Vida
This can all be solved "...with the input and guidance of many people and industry experts assisting..." who evidently are qualified enough to have their fingers on the pulse of UTV (not to mention MC/quads) racing enough to be approached to re-write the rules on safety.
It is pretty simple.
Print out a list of who these people are...
...ask every single one of them PUBLICLY why they did not even know that there were ALREADY two separate rule books regarding safety...
...demand to know the following from all of them:
If you are a BITD, racing or even safety "expert" who was intricately involved in or had even a passing interest in even READING the re-written rules for safety in 2016 that you 'consulted' on...
...how did you enjoy yourself all season long while keeping your mouth SHUT as you witnessed what was actually going on...race after race?
If you were indeed an "expert" over, say, the age of "50"...why wasn't your #1 advice to BOTH Casey AND those approaching you for counsel this simple:
If the rules aren't shouted from the highest rooftop (immediately) or verifiably enforced (immediately) they were never written.
Polaris sponsors trucks which have stricter rules than even their own products running in the desert. For anyone to say that a manufacturer has been simply 'ignorant' in equating one with the other is no different than saying that these GENERAL safety rules were "missed" during all of 2016.
Our kids deserve better than to be buffaloed on the safety aspect of racing these machines for all these years.
Please give us a detailed list of who the safety "experts" may be in this sport or how the 2016 season unfolded through THEIR eyes as the organizers, team owners and sponsors evidently view the insignificance of that very fiasco as being akin to an 8 year old racing (period) or in a car not even fit to.
It is pretty simple.
Print out a list of who these people are...
...ask every single one of them PUBLICLY why they did not even know that there were ALREADY two separate rule books regarding safety...
...demand to know the following from all of them:
If you are a BITD, racing or even safety "expert" who was intricately involved in or had even a passing interest in even READING the re-written rules for safety in 2016 that you 'consulted' on...
...how did you enjoy yourself all season long while keeping your mouth SHUT as you witnessed what was actually going on...race after race?
If you were indeed an "expert" over, say, the age of "50"...why wasn't your #1 advice to BOTH Casey AND those approaching you for counsel this simple:
If the rules aren't shouted from the highest rooftop (immediately) or verifiably enforced (immediately) they were never written.
Polaris sponsors trucks which have stricter rules than even their own products running in the desert. For anyone to say that a manufacturer has been simply 'ignorant' in equating one with the other is no different than saying that these GENERAL safety rules were "missed" during all of 2016.
Our kids deserve better than to be buffaloed on the safety aspect of racing these machines for all these years.
Please give us a detailed list of who the safety "experts" may be in this sport or how the 2016 season unfolded through THEIR eyes as the organizers, team owners and sponsors evidently view the insignificance of that very fiasco as being akin to an 8 year old racing (period) or in a car not even fit to.
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george.felix
George
I never knew about fire suits. I don't get involved with what the other classes are doing. The idea everyone should have known is ridiculous. We would have known if we were informed. David, your more of a diplomat than I'd be. I'm glad to hear the change is going to be implemented in a reasonable manner.
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Do you let your kids get in the car with you without a full cage, helmet,fire suit, onboard fire supression? If so how do you live with yourself?
Dave is spending his own time and money trying to help and you are trolling the internet acting like some kind of all knowing god. If you can do better do it! Otherwise why dont you worry about your own legacy and go bubble wrap your kids.
