BITD Email to UTV Racers. Please Read and Respond ASAP
- Thread starter JoeyD23
- Start date
dezerteryx
Active Member
The point is your claiming a stock engine and it's not thought that was pretty clear. I can bolt on a turbo or bbk kit doesn't make it bolt on's. It would now be a turbo or bbk engine. If your running a high compression standard bore engine than own it and not say oh its stock with bolt on's.
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I am not claiming a stock engine... Must be some confusion...
Like I said, sparks dyno shows I have 15% more than bone stock
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george.felix
George
Only cars that are kicking ass in the NA class would move up to take on turbo cars. That likely would be very few cars.
jakecarver91
Active Member
I am as private as they come... Bone stock xp1000 with a queen tune, chassis built in my garage, Lonestar long travel kit, fuel cell, and low budget. I started racing bitd because I want competition. If I was able to go out and dominate the field because I have a better car than everyone else then what would be the point? I race desert because it's not all about a big engine. It's about finishing at a fast average pace. With that being said, am I worried that the turbo cars will pull harder in sand and silt than mine can? Yes I am. But I am also just as threatened by someone who is sponsored by sparks and has a built motor with far more power than mine and can have a refreshed motor for every race if they want. It's like trick truck and 6100. The pro Utv class is trick truck... I don't see some of the smaller Tt teams complaining that big names like Baldwin or Gordon have more resources to faster engines.... In my opinion, if you're going to race the pro class you have to expect to compete against motors that will out perform yours. If you don't want the competition then sandbag and go race unlimited or a smaller series and take the w every time.... If I feel that turbos have made my car obsolete then I'll sell mine and build a turbo. Utvs will always be a changing class so I'll try to keep up with the jones like I have since I was racing a stock rhino against 800cc big bore rhinos... For someone with a built 1000 motor to say that a turbo is an advantage over them and that they shouldn't race in our class is just like me saying that built 1000 motors shouldn't race against me because I have a stock 1000 motor... Just my opinion and its subject to criticism just like all the others lol
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CodyNygren
#1916 Lone Star Racing
So here is my thoughts and pretty mch what I sent into BITD.
First off I would like to see the classes split into a Pro/Unlimited Class and a Production/Sportsman Class.
The Unlimited/Pro Class would house all of the Turbo, Shifter, New Manfactured Releasees and of course anything that fits the Unlimited guidelines. The Production/Sportsman Class wold basically remain the same and have a locked set of rules. This class would be a true entry level class. So basically a true Pro Class and and a spec class.
I believe that if you structured it this way you would truly have the best drivers and teams competing against each other in the unlimited class and still not jeopardize factory support or losing current competitors. I say this because when a manufacture releases a new car middle season there will be no complaining or rule changing as that car and manufacture will be able to compete in the current unlimited class therefore both the driver and manufactory needs are meet. The even bigger reason is for us current non factory backed races that have no desire to quit racing but also cannot afford to build a new car every year and still want a way to remain competitive with the new cars being released. An example is, if the classes where structured this way we (guys that can’t build a new car every year) can update, build are current engines, or even add an aftermarket turbo so that our current cars will be on the same HP level as the newly released car. This option is a lot more feasible for us seeing that we can spend $2-3000 (in most cases probably free do to sponsor support) instead of building a new car at a price of $40-80,000. I know it has been mentioned that we can update our current car to the factory Polaris turbo drive train but this is a $8-10,000 expense.
The other issue that is not being addressed here and there is no way to really police, is ECU flashes. I have talked to a variety of engine builders and they all claim that there is no real way to police this issue. That technology has advanced so much within the last year that they can reprogram an ecu while the ecu is on the car. Thus not disrupting the so called seal tape. The other issue is teams that do not live in the Phoenix area, how are these ecu’s being checked and taped? From what I am hearing there is going to be a lot of disputes between teams on this issue at the start of the year if not the next race. So back to my structuring mentioned above, if the classes were set this way than the ecu flashes would not be an issue, as there would be no guideline on this.
Let’s simplify the classes instead of constantly changing the rules every time a manufacture decides to release a new car.
At the end of the day the best drivers and teams want to race the best of the best in the same class, so why put limits on this, let us build cars how we want and with no restriction. Thus we will be able to stay competitive while keeping build costs down (not having to build a new car every year) and still be able to race the best competitors out there. No other class in desert racing has to build a new car every year to stay competitive or because a manufacture comes out with something new. If you want to keep the class growing and retain us current racers there needs to be a restructure and for me personally this is what I recommend and see fitting.
If they do not change the class I truely believe we will lose alot of racers and other racing organizations will grow. Thus hurting Pro UTV racing as a whole!
First off I would like to see the classes split into a Pro/Unlimited Class and a Production/Sportsman Class.
The Unlimited/Pro Class would house all of the Turbo, Shifter, New Manfactured Releasees and of course anything that fits the Unlimited guidelines. The Production/Sportsman Class wold basically remain the same and have a locked set of rules. This class would be a true entry level class. So basically a true Pro Class and and a spec class.
I believe that if you structured it this way you would truly have the best drivers and teams competing against each other in the unlimited class and still not jeopardize factory support or losing current competitors. I say this because when a manufacture releases a new car middle season there will be no complaining or rule changing as that car and manufacture will be able to compete in the current unlimited class therefore both the driver and manufactory needs are meet. The even bigger reason is for us current non factory backed races that have no desire to quit racing but also cannot afford to build a new car every year and still want a way to remain competitive with the new cars being released. An example is, if the classes where structured this way we (guys that can’t build a new car every year) can update, build are current engines, or even add an aftermarket turbo so that our current cars will be on the same HP level as the newly released car. This option is a lot more feasible for us seeing that we can spend $2-3000 (in most cases probably free do to sponsor support) instead of building a new car at a price of $40-80,000. I know it has been mentioned that we can update our current car to the factory Polaris turbo drive train but this is a $8-10,000 expense.
The other issue that is not being addressed here and there is no way to really police, is ECU flashes. I have talked to a variety of engine builders and they all claim that there is no real way to police this issue. That technology has advanced so much within the last year that they can reprogram an ecu while the ecu is on the car. Thus not disrupting the so called seal tape. The other issue is teams that do not live in the Phoenix area, how are these ecu’s being checked and taped? From what I am hearing there is going to be a lot of disputes between teams on this issue at the start of the year if not the next race. So back to my structuring mentioned above, if the classes were set this way than the ecu flashes would not be an issue, as there would be no guideline on this.
Let’s simplify the classes instead of constantly changing the rules every time a manufacture decides to release a new car.
At the end of the day the best drivers and teams want to race the best of the best in the same class, so why put limits on this, let us build cars how we want and with no restriction. Thus we will be able to stay competitive while keeping build costs down (not having to build a new car every year) and still be able to race the best competitors out there. No other class in desert racing has to build a new car every year to stay competitive or because a manufacture comes out with something new. If you want to keep the class growing and retain us current racers there needs to be a restructure and for me personally this is what I recommend and see fitting.
If they do not change the class I truely believe we will lose alot of racers and other racing organizations will grow. Thus hurting Pro UTV racing as a whole!
Racers like you are what make up the majority of this class. Believe it or not, I am fighting for you guys more than myself.
There is supposedly an arctic cat coming mid next year that will be a turbo car and from factory make well over 200hp. I don't want to see all the privateers like yourself racing an n/a car throw their hands up when this thing hits the pro class in 2017, think about it.
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jakecarver91
Active Member
I get that. 200hp is double the power though, not 30%. But in 2017 if that does happen, I'm sure every other manufacturer will have something similar out. Arctic cat also came out with a 1000 back when everyone else had an 800 and it sucked so I'm not too concerned with that. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just saying that unfortunately I don't think you'll be able to hold the class back when a new model comes out every year that is better than the previous. I think that if there is 2 classes, one that is basically pro unlimited, and one that is limited, there will always be a place for people to race. My biggest thing is holding rules for a full year at least. If you know what you will be racing against for the whole season at the beginning it's all good, but when a new car comes out half way through the year it throws a wrench in things. At least then if you were in the running for the points championship you wouldn't get ruled out half way through by someone who can build a new car faster
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jakecarver91
Active Member
And one more thing I'm curious of is what do all of the factory teams plan to race in the upcoming years? It's clear that cognito wants to stay NA but what about jagged, mb, Murray, etc? If the classes are split and all the factory teams move to the "turbo" class minus cognito, I would still want to race the majority of the factory teams therefore I would have to build a turbo anyway. One thing I wouldn't want to see is the classes splitting to benefit the privateer and then the NA class is considered a lower level class and only entry level privateers race that class. Yes I'm a privateer myself, but I still want to race the big names and try to beat them...
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george.felix
George
I think some thinking too hard about something pretty simple.....We've all seen the movie about the come from behind race horse and then of course Rocky. The simple truth is 30% hp or more is a huge advantage you won't overcome very often except in Hollywood movies. Sure you may have a good race on the right course and the stars line up right on a given day. The NA class will be considered a lower level class just like the 250 class is vs the 450 class. That doesn't mean the class doesn't have just as awesome competition and it's own star riders. It works the way it should......clear out the class and dominate then get on a new machine and move up. There's nothing new about that. Some guys have careers in the 250 class then retire....they should have a place to race too with their own kind. Mark Queen said it right.....it's taking a knife to a gun fight! It's unrealistic to compare NA to turbo. Stock vs built is a grey area....the hp difference isn't unsurmountable. Lighten up your wheels and as Jake said Queen Voodoo and your closing the gap.
It becomes more science when you keep platforms the same. Then it's all about other things NOT about 30% plus horsepower. That's just unrealistic. In boxing terms that would be 2-3 weight classes.
It becomes more science when you keep platforms the same. Then it's all about other things NOT about 30% plus horsepower. That's just unrealistic. In boxing terms that would be 2-3 weight classes.
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Bajaxp
SXS Racer Extraordinaire - UTVUnderground Approved
For a new build, it takes just as much time and money to build a NA car as does to build a turbo car. Turbo might even be cheaper because they really don't need any engine mods. The issue isn't NA vs Turbo. The issue is, when do you let the new technology be legal in the top Pro UTV class. Clearly making turbos legal last January was a mistake and at as it really only benefitted one person/manufacturer. I can't think of one team who, if given the choice right now...eg today, would opt to build a brand new NA car over a turbo. It is not a 'what' question, it is a 'when' question. The manufacturers are not pounding the top teams to build turbos. And 'yes' I know.
I agree with Jake above, that winning in desert racing is way more about prep, planning and equally important driving skill. If you minimized 'down time' and you are a decent driver (smooth and fast), you should be able to get a top five in whatever car at any given race.
Jagged X could run any hot rod engine they want and used to run Kroyer power. But today they run stock and are a top team (if not 'the' top team) with what seven championships and a chit ton of wins? Why are they so fast and yet they run stock hp? Prep, preparation, excellent chase team and a few good 'nuts behind their wheels.' They are still in the hunt for both the SCORE and BITD championships and they are building a turbo. Could they have slammed one together for V2R?... sure. Could they have had one done for IV250?...sure. But they are taking their time building, testing and will eventually race it. But this team knows that newly cars are not always better cars for winning races. It takes time to get them sorted out.
The bottom line is that we are respectfully debating 'symptoms' and not 'root causes.' This is not a turbo vs NA debate, it is much, much bigger.
I agree with Jake above, that winning in desert racing is way more about prep, planning and equally important driving skill. If you minimized 'down time' and you are a decent driver (smooth and fast), you should be able to get a top five in whatever car at any given race.
Jagged X could run any hot rod engine they want and used to run Kroyer power. But today they run stock and are a top team (if not 'the' top team) with what seven championships and a chit ton of wins? Why are they so fast and yet they run stock hp? Prep, preparation, excellent chase team and a few good 'nuts behind their wheels.' They are still in the hunt for both the SCORE and BITD championships and they are building a turbo. Could they have slammed one together for V2R?... sure. Could they have had one done for IV250?...sure. But they are taking their time building, testing and will eventually race it. But this team knows that newly cars are not always better cars for winning races. It takes time to get them sorted out.
The bottom line is that we are respectfully debating 'symptoms' and not 'root causes.' This is not a turbo vs NA debate, it is much, much bigger.
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jakecarver91
Active Member
I don't disagree with you or anyone else that the turbo cars are an advantage. A large crew with 2-3 fully stocked chase trucks is also an advantage over me but I don't ask to limit the amount of chase trucks a team can have.
And if we use "turbos" as a defining label to a class, what happens when a 200hp N/A car is released? This whole argument starts up again? Unfortunately we cannot control the release of new machines so it's hard to categorize them.
Either way the topic will not be resolved on this thread. It will come down to what Cory convinces Casey of. In my opinion it should be a vote, that would tell what the true majority of the racers think. Unfortunately I'm sure you read the email that clearly states it's not a vote lol. Jagged did the right thing by taking a survey at V2R. I'm not sure why we have to email our opinions in now when they had a perfectly good survey set up for them. I guess Cory just feels threatened and doesn't want to take the hand out that Bill generously gave him by taking a survey and quantifying all the info... But what do I know!
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jakecarver91
Active Member
I couldn't agree more. Hold to a set of rules for a given time. If you know what you're up against for the whole season you can be competitive. But if you try to build or improve your car to compete with the current models in January and someone comes out with a far superior machine in July, then you're screwed
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FullTiltLunatic
New Member
Pardon me if my thoughts here have been discussed, but didn't have time to read entire thread. I just want to point out that with Turbos looking to be the future for UTV's. How will they handle a 2014 Xp1k getting a turbo kit vs having to go out and buy a new factory turbo car? If someone wants to race Turbo class why should they have to spend $25k instead of $6k to add turbo to a current BITD legal n/a car?
N/A class or Turbo class (factory or aftermarket) IMO. Each year these manufacturers are trying to piss on each others HP numbers. No sanctioning body can re-write the rulebook each time the manufacturers release a new model. These aren't hand built race cars which IMO are easier to govern then what we are faced with.
N/A class or Turbo class (factory or aftermarket) IMO. Each year these manufacturers are trying to piss on each others HP numbers. No sanctioning body can re-write the rulebook each time the manufacturers release a new model. These aren't hand built race cars which IMO are easier to govern then what we are faced with.
george.felix
George
I disagree with some of the logic only because there is so many precedents for this exact situation. You compete with similar machines, weight class, age, sex, or whatever the case may be. The TOP pro class is going to be the one that's most competitive and the fans decide that. The top class is not necessarily the heavyweight class. Keep the machines relatively similar or better said a level playing field and let it shake itself out. Jakes right they may offer a 2000cc machine but it won't run with 1000cc.....that will be a new class. No reason to grow the sport with respect to the machine type. In shorter races might be cool to have an 800cc and 900 cc class. If you can get enough entries why not? Putting all Utvs together isn't the way to grow the sport. You wouldn't throw all bikes from 85cc to 650cc together and call it a race. I promise you no one smaller than a 450cc would show up. You lose 2/3 of your participants......this is simple it's already been done over and over in other sports.
Solution is keep NA and Turbo separate. Older build slap on a turbo and go to turbo class whatever they wanna call it.
Solution is keep NA and Turbo separate. Older build slap on a turbo and go to turbo class whatever they wanna call it.
FullTiltLunatic
New Member
Class for stock motors...and... Built motor and Turbo class....
Less Expensive class... and ...Big $ Teams class
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Lets face it, if you group built motors and turbo guys together then your probably going to see Turbos become majority as the power isn't there to get from a N/A car. But then your faced with how to allow aftermarket Turbo's because I don't see just allowing factory Turbo cars fair.
Tough Road ahead to get this all gel'ed out.
Less Expensive class... and ...Big $ Teams class
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Lets face it, if you group built motors and turbo guys together then your probably going to see Turbos become majority as the power isn't there to get from a N/A car. But then your faced with how to allow aftermarket Turbo's because I don't see just allowing factory Turbo cars fair.
Tough Road ahead to get this all gel'ed out.
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That video of Simms, I would bet Simms did no clutch tuning on that turbo car yet. He added a few hundred pounds, and the clutch will need to be tuned to accommodate the extra weight. Carvers car is already dialed I am sure since he has been racing for a while now.
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george.felix
George
Anyone who believes that video accurately portrays the performance of a NA car vs a turbo car just fell off the cabbage truck. Lol I have a video of me and my 6 yr old arm wrestling and he beat me....lmao!!!