2014 BITD PRO UTV CLASS suggestion thread

COGNITO · Dec 8, 2013

2013 is over, lets make 2014 even better!

Here are my suggestions for the class for next season. I hope all the racers get on here and enter their suggestions as well.

This is not a rant thread, it is a thread to make things better, so lets make some valid points with some issues that have reachable solutions. Here are my first suggestions.

1. [FONT=&quot]DSR1 should not start in front of PRO UTV. There has only been 1 race in the last 2 seasons that a DSR1 has overall beat all other UTVs.

2.[/FONT] Parker 250 we should get to race more miles. I canâ€™t remember if this one is GP finish or not. Out of 70 or more dirt bikes and quads, UTVs are faster than 50 of them, we want a longer race because these short races start to become more about who has the most horsepower and money invested.

3. Henderson 250, I feel we should have been in race #2. PRO UTV was faster average speeds than almost all of race #2. Also the grand pre finish in race #1 was unfair. You have the fastest dirt bike guy starting out front with a 20-30 minute head start over the last UTV, all in a 45 mile loop. We broke an axle, lost 20 minutes because of that and thus did not get to run a 3<sup>rd</sup> lap. I would agree more if the GP finish was per class rather than per race, so the UTV class would take checkers after the first UTV car passed finish line rather than after the guy that got a 30 minute head start on a dirt bike. Doesnâ€™t make sense. Plus again, these short races start to become more about who has the most horsepower.

4. Pit speed limit, if the limit is 25 MPH, it isn't being enforced. People are/have gained position and won races by speeding in the pits. There has been a threat in the past of radar guns in the pits but there is no way it is being enforced, there is people doing 40 in the pits. Yes it is a gamble on getting a penalty, but if a rule isn't being enforced like this, it is cheating in my opinion.

Bret901 · Dec 8, 2013

2014 will be our rookie season in BITD, we will be at the Parker 250, although we haven't raced yet, I completely agree with the longer race. We are coming from Tennessee and it's a long drive for just 2 laps, I would love to run the whole 250. We built our team consisting of 3 owner/drivers to keep it affordable but may not have enough miles in the shorter races for driver changes. I always assumed a 250 meant 250miles and the mint 400 and so on. Seems as though V2R is the only full race. My 2cents the pro class should run the whole race, let the sportsman class run the shortened race.

BrianReno · Dec 8, 2013

Justin,

I agree 100% with all 4 of your points above.

One other thing that came up at the Henderson 250 was the slower quads and dirt bike riders that DON'T MOVE over when they have been caught for miles and run at 25-35MPH slowing us down. I heard a few teams discuss this after the race yesterday.

I know that Casey likes to put the UTV's in with the bikes and quads due to the finishing rates in years past, but it maybe time to re-evaluate this and get a class consensus as to where we should be running.

Bajaxp · Dec 8, 2013

Cognito J...I don't race in BITD, but if ok with you I will weigh in. Yes/no.

COGNITO · Dec 8, 2013

Bajaxp said:
Cognito J...I don't race in BITD, but if ok with you I will weigh in. Yes/no.

yes please

COGNITO · Dec 8, 2013

Bret901 said:
2014 will be our rookie season in BITD, we will be at the Parker 250, although we haven't raced yet, I completely agree with the longer race. We are coming from Tennessee and it's a long drive for just 2 laps, I would love to run the whole 250. We built our team consisting of 3 owner/drivers to keep it affordable but may not have enough miles in the shorter races for driver changes. I always assumed a 250 meant 250miles and the mint 400 and so on. Seems as though V2R is the only full race. My 2cents the pro class should run the whole race, let the sportsman class run the shortened race.

looking forward to having you, if you have some questions regarding BITD rules and schedule and such, start a thread in the desert racing section of the forum and you will get plenty of help from myself and others in the class!

COGNITO · Dec 8, 2013

BrianReno said:
Justin,

I agree 100% with all 4 of your points above.

One other thing that came up at the Henderson 250 was the slower quads and dirt bike riders that DON'T MOVE over when they have been caught for miles and run at 25-35MPH slowing us down. I heard a few teams discuss this after the race yesterday.

I know that Casey likes to put the UTV's in with the bikes and quads due to the finishing rates in years past, but it maybe time to re-evaluate this and get a class consensus as to where we should be running.

X2, they can not hear us. The problem is, we cant nerf them to let them know we are there if they don't hear us. If we were racing in race 2, we still would have passed a ton of cars, trucks, and jeep speeds, but at least we could nerf them if they dont here us.

We passed a few bikes that didnt know we were there and it was scary close, a guy on a bike is gonna get hurt soon. Something needs to be done. It seems to me, that it would be easier for a fast bike guy to pass a UTV rather than the other way around.

BrianReno · Dec 8, 2013

COGNITO said:
X2, they can not hear us. The problem is, we cant nerf them to let them know we are there if they don't hear us. If we were racing in race 2, we still would have passed a ton of cars, trucks, and jeep speeds, but at least we could nerf them if they dont here us.

We passed a few bikes that didnt know we were there and it was scary close, a guy on a bike is gonna get hurt soon. Something needs to be done. It seems to me, that it would be easier for a fast bike guy to pass a UTV rather than the other way around.

Exact discussion I had yesterday, the real scary part is the fact that there were so many riders down yesterday on the first lap. UTV vs. downed rider = no good. The UTV's are getting faster and faster and should not be running in the Bike/Quad class anymore.

JoeyD23 · Dec 9, 2013

I agree 100% on the GP finish. I think it should be done per class, at least between UTV and MCs.

With that said, I am not fully sure we should be pushing to be moved into race 2. The same things you guys are saying about MCs and Quads are the same things the larger classes say about running up on UTVs. Majority of the BITD races are lap races, with the amount of cars / trucks that usually take the green flag that means a TT / C1 is going to also get wayyy out in front in a GP race and in almost all of these loop races TTs / C1 are going to catch UTVs.

An unlimited truck or buggy catching and passing a UTV is sketchy for both parties. Unfortunately for our class, and really for all classes, is that while we do have some really fast UTVs now racing, majority are off the pace and I don't think Casey nor the unlimited drivers are going to agree with us wanting to move into race 2.

I could see Casey possibly considering starting us at the back of the pack at V2R but I'm not sure that you guys would want that either?

People not moving over is a part of desert racing. Everyone has to contend with it and unfortunately for everyone if it's a bike slowing you down you rarely can do anything but be patient. TTs and Unlimited vehicles alike have complained about the bike scenario for years in Baja. SCORE now sends them off the night before to hopefully eliminate and 4 wheel cars / trucks from catching them.

BiggJim · Dec 9, 2013

JoeyD23 said:
I agree 100% on the GP finish. I think it should be done per class, at least between UTV and MCs.

With that said, I am not fully sure we should be pushing to be moved into race 2. The same things you guys are saying about MCs and Quads are the same things the larger classes say about running up on UTVs. Majority of the BITD races are lap races, with the amount of cars / trucks that usually take the green flag that means a TT / C1 is going to also get wayyy out in front in a GP race and in almost all of these loop races TTs / C1 are going to catch UTVs.

An unlimited truck or buggy catching and passing a UTV is sketchy for both parties. Unfortunately for our class, and really for all classes, is that while we do have some really fast UTVs now racing, majority are off the pace and I don't think Casey nor the unlimited drivers are going to agree with us wanting to move into race 2.

I could see Casey possibly considering starting us at the back of the pack at V2R but I'm not sure that you guys would want that either?

People not moving over is a part of desert racing. Everyone has to contend with it and unfortunately for everyone if it's a bike slowing you down you rarely can do anything but be patient. TTs and Unlimited vehicles alike have complained about the bike scenario for years in Baja. SCORE now sends them off the night before to hopefully eliminate and 4 wheel cars / trucks from catching them.

I dont think the suggestion is to put us in the race with the unlimited vehicles I doubt anyone in a UTV wants to have to deal with the Unlimiteds, it seems as there was a race inbetween that we could have ran in.

JoeyD23 · Dec 9, 2013

Oh you know what, I think you are correct Jim. I was confusing this race with the Mint I think where there is only 2 races. You are right, I think there was 3 races this weekend in which case I agree, UTVs could race in with those other limited classes.

NIKAL · Dec 9, 2013

Here is the facts. UTV's have 4 wheels, a steering wheel & seats. Fact is they are a buggy not a bike or quad. They should not be racing with bikes. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard & seen. I know Casey is all about safety, but he missed the mark on this one by a long shot.

UTV's should run in the 1st 4 wheel race of the day which consists of all the limited classes. The 2nd race of the day is the Unlimited and heavier vehicles. I also think the first year UTV's are put into the Limited car race, they should start in the rear of that field for the first two races of that season. Once they have established where they are finishing in the group of race classes, they can then be moved up from starting last to the appropriate starting order.

One big issue the UTV's will have and you all are going to have to man up and shut up about is about "Nerfing". If you want to run in the limited 4 wheel vehicle class race, you will have to come to the realization that nerfing happens. I'm not talking about abusive nerfing, but general tap, bump and move over happens. I know you guys are not used to that and that is something you will have to get over. If you dont like it, watch your mirrors and move! You have a co-rider, that is part of their job! If you guys cry about it, that will only put the UTV class back to where you dont want to be, and label you guys as pussies who are racing modified golf carts and dont belong out there.

The Sportsman classes needs to go away! You want to run sportsmen in a UTV, then you race Sportsmen buggy. UTV should have one class and it should be labeled "UTV" in the Pro class. No other class has a Pro & Sportsmen for the same vehicle. You dont have Sportsmen 1600, you dont have Sportsmen class 10. You want to race a UTV you race Pro UTV. You want to race a UTV in a Sportsmen class, you race in the Sportsmen buggy class against 4 seat V8 prerun buggys.

Laps or mileage the UTV's should race the same amount as the limited cars. Personally I think all classes should race the advertized distance of the race as advertized. I have a hard time paying the same price yet getting less laps or mileage. This is also why I was so excited to see the UTV run the whole Baja 1000 and not take the short cut. But this is for a whole other discussion!

The UTV class needs to step up and set a precedence now. Also put your ego's aside and realize everything you are doing now will only better the class in the future. You guys need the best finishing rate you can get. Because if two teams are finishing well, but another 5 or 6 are just finishing on time, with another 4 or 5 DNF'ing that does not show well for the class. Work together, get the class strong and then you can go to war on each other.

I was at this last BITD race freezing my ass off helping Justin Lofton's Class 1 car. We started discussing different classes I brought up UTV's. So many looked at me like I was crazy, then when I asked to show me another class that has manufacture/factory support right now? Not one person could answer me. I got the whole "Ford supports BITD and pays out." I replied "Show me one classes that has manufacture support, and not from just one manufacture and not in just prize money." No one could answer me. Because there is no other class right now that had manufacture support. This also goes for Score too. Take advantage of this now, because eventually this class will lose that manufacture support as all classes in the past have. Also this class like all the rest will become political, and you guys need a strong base to overcome that and have a long term future.

COGNITO · Dec 9, 2013

JoeyD23 said:
Oh you know what, I think you are correct Jim. I was confusing this race with the Mint I think where there is only 2 races. You are right, I think there was 3 races this weekend in which case I agree, UTVs could race in with those other limited classes.

correct, there were 3 races, in race 2 the top utvs would have been in top 10 of race 2.

the only race this is an issue is H250 and Parker 250

BiggJim · Dec 9, 2013

NIKAL said:
Here is the facts. UTV's have 4 wheels, a steering wheel & seats. Fact is they are a buggy not a bike or quad. They should not be racing with bikes. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard & seen. I know Casey is all about safety, but he missed the mark on this one by a long shot.

UTV's should run in the 1st 4 wheel race of the day which consists of all the limited classes. The 2nd race of the day is the Unlimited and heavier vehicles. I also think the first year UTV's are put into the Limited car race, they should start in the rear of that field for the first two races of that season. Once they have established where they are finishing in the group of race classes, they can then be moved up from starting last to the appropriate starting order.

One big issue the UTV's will have and you all are going to have to man up and shut up about is about "Nerfing". If you want to run in the limited 4 wheel vehicle class race, you will have to come to the realization that nerfing happens. I'm not talking about abusive nerfing, but general tap, bump and move over happens. I know you guys are not used to that and that is something you will have to get over. If you dont like it, watch your mirrors and move! You have a co-rider, that is part of their job! If you guys cry about it, that will only put the UTV class back to where you dont want to be, and label you guys as pussies who are racing modified golf carts and dont belong out there.

The Sportsman classes needs to go away! You want to run sportsmen in a UTV, then you race Sportsmen buggy. UTV should have one class and it should be labeled "UTV" in the Pro class. No other class has a Pro & Sportsmen for the same vehicle. You dont have Sportsmen 1600, you dont have Sportsmen class 10. You want to race a UTV you race Pro UTV. You want to race a UTV in a Sportsmen class, you race in the Sportsmen buggy class against 4 seat V8 prerun buggys.

Laps or mileage the UTV's should race the same amount as the limited cars. Personally I think all classes should race the advertized distance of the race as advertized. I have a hard time paying the same price yet getting less laps or mileage. This is also why I was so excited to see the UTV run the whole Baja 1000 and not take the short cut. But this is for a whole other discussion!

The UTV class needs to step up and set a precedence now. Also put your ego's aside and realize everything you are doing now will only better the class in the future. You guys need the best finishing rate you can get. Because if two teams are finishing well, but another 5 or 6 are just finishing on time, with another 4 or 5 DNF'ing that does not show well for the class. Work together, get the class strong and then you can go to war on each other.

I was at this last BITD race freezing my ass off helping Justin Lofton's Class 1 car. We started discussing different classes I brought up UTV's. So many looked at me like I was crazy, then when I asked to show me another class that has manufacture/factory support right now? Not one person could answer me. I got the whole "Ford supports BITD and pays out." I replied "Show me one classes that has manufacture support, and not from just one manufacture and not in just prize money." No one could answer me. Because there is no other class right now that had manufacture support. This also goes for Score too. Take advantage of this now, because eventually this class will lose that manufacture support as all classes in the past have. Also this class like all the rest will become political, and you guys need a strong base to overcome that and have a long term future.

I havent heard to many people complain about being nerfed.....unless it was excessive...and I am not talking about getting hit more than once....Im talking about getting taken for a ride with no warning

BiggJim · Dec 9, 2013

COGNITO said:
correct, there were 3 races, in race 2 the top utvs would have been in top 10 of race 2.

the only race this is an issue is H250 and Parker 250

It would be nice to step up a race at the mint as well....or at the very least get to race more miles....as it suits we race the mint 200

COGNITO · Dec 9, 2013

NIKAL said:
Here is the facts. UTV's have 4 wheels, a steering wheel & seats. Fact is they are a buggy not a bike or quad. They should not be racing with bikes. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard & seen. I know Casey is all about safety, but he missed the mark on this one by a long shot.

UTV's should run in the 1st 4 wheel race of the day which consists of all the limited classes. The 2nd race of the day is the Unlimited and heavier vehicles. I also think the first year UTV's are put into the Limited car race, they should start in the rear of that field for the first two races of that season. Once they have established where they are finishing in the group of race classes, they can then be moved up from starting last to the appropriate starting order.

One big issue the UTV's will have and you all are going to have to man up and shut up about is about "Nerfing". If you want to run in the limited 4 wheel vehicle class race, you will have to come to the realization that nerfing happens. I'm not talking about abusive nerfing, but general tap, bump and move over happens. I know you guys are not used to that and that is something you will have to get over. If you dont like it, watch your mirrors and move! You have a co-rider, that is part of their job! If you guys cry about it, that will only put the UTV class back to where you dont want to be, and label you guys as pussies who are racing modified golf carts and dont belong out there.

The Sportsman classes needs to go away! You want to run sportsmen in a UTV, then you race Sportsmen buggy. UTV should have one class and it should be labeled "UTV" in the Pro class. No other class has a Pro & Sportsmen for the same vehicle. You dont have Sportsmen 1600, you dont have Sportsmen class 10. You want to race a UTV you race Pro UTV. You want to race a UTV in a Sportsmen class, you race in the Sportsmen buggy class against 4 seat V8 prerun buggys.

Laps or mileage the UTV's should race the same amount as the limited cars. Personally I think all classes should race the advertized distance of the race as advertized. I have a hard time paying the same price yet getting less laps or mileage. This is also why I was so excited to see the UTV run the whole Baja 1000 and not take the short cut. But this is for a whole other discussion!

The UTV class needs to step up and set a precedence now. Also put your ego's aside and realize everything you are doing now will only better the class in the future. You guys need the best finishing rate you can get. Because if two teams are finishing well, but another 5 or 6 are just finishing on time, with another 4 or 5 DNF'ing that does not show well for the class. Work together, get the class strong and then you can go to war on each other.

I was at this last BITD race freezing my ass off helping Justin Lofton's Class 1 car. We started discussing different classes I brought up UTV's. So many looked at me like I was crazy, then when I asked to show me another class that has manufacture/factory support right now? Not one person could answer me. I got the whole "Ford supports BITD and pays out." I replied "Show me one classes that has manufacture support, and not from just one manufacture and not in just prize money." No one could answer me. Because there is no other class right now that had manufacture support. This also goes for Score too. Take advantage of this now, because eventually this class will lose that manufacture support as all classes in the past have. Also this class like all the rest will become political, and you guys need a strong base to overcome that and have a long term future.

eeeasy eeeeasy, i dont want this to become a battle on this thread and i get the feeling you are pushing the lines on the 'rant'. i dont take it as a rant but others i am afraid will. If i am wrong sorry, just trying to keep this productive without starting a poop storm that is just going to piss off the man at BITD.

I have no problem with a nerf, this is the first season i ever had to use my front bumper and it was on a 1600 at the mint and a jeep speed at BWDC. the 1600 moved right over, the jeep speed was a dick and blocked. It is part of racing and as long as it used as a signal and not a road rage deal then it will be accepted. The jeep speed was delt with after the race via BITD official and hopefully he doesn't do that again.

You have great valid points i am with you on the factory support deal, this class will keep growing.

the stripping shop · Dec 9, 2013

liar you nerfed us at v2r. i think you should be able to do 250 miles at parker. he has land all weekend. parker pre-run is on sunday. or move race to parker 450 and start at 5:00 am do 2 laps i think that would be 300 milesjust like silver state. 3rd largest class needs to step up to make it long races instead of sprints.

Bajaxp · Dec 9, 2013

NIKAL said:
Here is the facts. UTV's have 4 wheels, a steering wheel & seats. Fact is they are a buggy not a bike or quad. They should not be racing with bikes. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard & seen. I know Casey is all about safety, but he missed the mark on this one by a long shot.

UTV's should run in the 1st 4 wheel race of the day which consists of all the limited classes. The 2nd race of the day is the Unlimited and heavier vehicles. I also think the first year UTV's are put into the Limited car race, they should start in the rear of that field for the first two races of that season. Once they have established where they are finishing in the group of race classes, they can then be moved up from starting last to the appropriate starting order.

One big issue the UTV's will have and you all are going to have to man up and shut up about is about "Nerfing". If you want to run in the limited 4 wheel vehicle class race, you will have to come to the realization that nerfing happens. I'm not talking about abusive nerfing, but general tap, bump and move over happens. I know you guys are not used to that and that is something you will have to get over. If you dont like it, watch your mirrors and move! You have a co-rider, that is part of their job! If you guys cry about it, that will only put the UTV class back to where you dont want to be, and label you guys as pussies who are racing modified golf carts and dont belong out there.

The Sportsman classes needs to go away! You want to run sportsmen in a UTV, then you race Sportsmen buggy. UTV should have one class and it should be labeled "UTV" in the Pro class. No other class has a Pro & Sportsmen for the same vehicle. You dont have Sportsmen 1600, you dont have Sportsmen class 10. You want to race a UTV you race Pro UTV. You want to race a UTV in a Sportsmen class, you race in the Sportsmen buggy class against 4 seat V8 prerun buggys.

Laps or mileage the UTV's should race the same amount as the limited cars. Personally I think all classes should race the advertized distance of the race as advertized. I have a hard time paying the same price yet getting less laps or mileage. This is also why I was so excited to see the UTV run the whole Baja 1000 and not take the short cut. But this is for a whole other discussion!

The UTV class needs to step up and set a precedence now. Also put your ego's aside and realize everything you are doing now will only better the class in the future. You guys need the best finishing rate you can get. Because if two teams are finishing well, but another 5 or 6 are just finishing on time, with another 4 or 5 DNF'ing that does not show well for the class. Work together, get the class strong and then you can go to war on each other.

I was at this last BITD race freezing my ass off helping Justin Lofton's Class 1 car. We started discussing different classes I brought up UTV's. So many looked at me like I was crazy, then when I asked to show me another class that has manufacture/factory support right now? Not one person could answer me. I got the whole "Ford supports BITD and pays out." I replied "Show me one classes that has manufacture support, and not from just one manufacture and not in just prize money." No one could answer me. Because there is no other class right now that had manufacture support. This also goes for Score too. Take advantage of this now, because eventually this class will lose that manufacture support as all classes in the past have. Also this class like all the rest will become political, and you guys need a strong base to overcome that and have a long term future.

I agree with you! We don't have handlebars and thus shouldn't be racing with them.

I agree with Cognito regarding nerfing. We have been hit before and have also dealt our own bit of 'chrome horn' when the regular one fails to be effective. But SMASHING a sub-2k car is unacceptable whether it be a 2/1600, or a UTV. I think we understand how this works.

Our class has already gone through some politics, but for the most part we have survived. 99% of the Ute guys know each other and get along great. We have discussed the rules formally and informally and the current rules are working well. Now that the SCORE rules virtually mimic the BITD rules and that there is a Pro class it will just help UTV desert racing grow.

NIKAL · Dec 9, 2013

Sorry guys if you took this as a rant! I just want to see this class grow. I have been around the sport for most of my life and have seen classes come & go. I think the UTV's have something good and for those who have not been around off-road desert racing for a long time, they might not be able to see it.

As far as Nerfing I have heard some guys talk about it in the past. And what I took from them is they were complaining about it, but it could be that they were new to the sport and dont really understand a nerf until it happened to them. You can talk about it and see it on Dust to Glory, but until you get a tap or push out of the way, you dont always know what it feels like or the goose egg dent it can leave in your cage. Also a nerf from a fast heavier vehicle can and will leave a mark, yet to them it was just a tap. BTW the thread about abusive nerfing at the Baja 1000 which took a team out was abusive. And what sucks is it came from a competitor in the same class, so that is not the people I'm talking about.

Also I feel much of the bad rap the UTV have gotten is from races like Vegas to Reno where Robby and some of the TT/Class 1 guys were mixing it up with the UTV's a few years ago. I believe RG lost the overall by a few seconds and it was partially blamed on the dust from the UTV's. That to me is when I saw the "Court of RDC" start really smack talking the "Golf Carts" But once again, I blame much of that on starting the UTV's with the bikes. They should be in the car classes, not bike classes.

NIKAL · Dec 9, 2013

Bajaxp said:
I agree with you! We don't have handlebars and thus shouldn't be racing with them.

I agree with Cognito regarding nerfing. We have been hit before and have also dealt our own bit of 'chrome horn' when the regular one fails to be effective. But SMASHING a sub-2k car is unacceptable whether it be a 2/1600, or a UTV. I think we understand how this works.

Our class has already gone through some politics, but for the most part we have survived. 99% of the Ute guys know each other and get along great. We have discussed the rules formally and informally and the current rules are working well. Now that the SCORE rules virtually mimic the BITD rules and that there is a Pro class it will just help UTV desert racing grow.

Matt I know you have been around the sport along time, so I think you get what I'm saying. And yes Smashing any limited car is BS! But I'm sure you would also agree many guys who have raced UTV's are not necessarily experienced with even a 1600 car taping them. My only reason for bring this up is if you guys were to get moved out of the MC classes and in the car classes this is something that will have to be dealt with. Trust me I have been on both sides of the nerfing deal. Once I had a TT blow threw my dust at the Hotter then Hell Score Henderson 250 race they did back in 2002, and at full speed plowed into my 5/1600. The excuse they gave was they thought I was the lead TT and he was just blowing threw dust. The next year Sal changed the loop races, and Primm became a split race event, limited in the morning & unlimited in the afternoon. That happened because of my incident and my relationship with guys like Mike Julson of Jimco, the Wehyrich's and so on calling and speaking with Sal.

And as far as Score, I think they are on the right track with starting you guys with the cars. Now lets hope you guys get a better start spot after the showing at the 1000!

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