2014 BITD PRO UTV CLASS suggestion thread

[Bajaxp]

Matt I know you have been around the sport along time, so I think you get what I'm saying. And yes Smashing any limited car is BS! But I'm sure you would also agree many guys who have raced UTV's are not necessarily experienced with even a 1600 car taping them. My only reason for bring this up is if you guys were to get moved out of the MC classes and in the car classes this is something that will have to be dealt with. Trust me I have been on both sides of the nerfing deal. Once I had a TT blow threw my dust at the Hotter then Hell Score Henderson 250 race they did back in 2002, and at full speed plowed into my 5/1600. The excuse they gave was they thought I was the lead TT and he was just blowing threw dust. The next year Sal changed the loop races, and Primm became a split race event, limited in the morning & unlimited in the afternoon. That happened because of my incident and my relationship with guys like Mike Julson of Jimco, the Wehyrich's and so on calling and speaking with Sal.

And as far as Score, I think they are on the right track with starting you guys with the cars. Now lets hope you guys get a better start spot after the showing at the 1000!

Agreed and I think we have a shot at a better starting position in SCORE. I know that Cory is talking to Casey about a whole lot of things, such as more mileage, starting position, etc.

I too have seen classes, not necessarily come and go, but come in with a flash only to end up fizzling out, with very low car counts. Eg...SCORE class 2 which was sort of a class 10 thing which is now gone, Trophy Lite, Class 3000 (SWB class 10), Pro Truck, etc...all the way back to Mini Mag. But UTV's are now in their 8th season and car count is up! 19 Ute's started this year's 1000 and I think there was almost 30 at the Mint. Plus the desert racing has spun off other forms of racing either directly or indirectly such as KOH, Dakar, GNCC, WORCS, Lucas regional, and I am sure there are more. My point is that I believe UTV racing is thriving. The manufacturers and aftermarket supports it. My only wish that dealers would get more involved in UTV racing and field a team or two on their own like they have done with motocross, PWC racing etc.

Back on topic. In his heart Casey is a 'bike guy' but from where I sit the bike and ATV counts appear to be down. Soooo...UTV's kind of get lumped in with the handlebars.

 

[COGNITO]

liar you nerfed us at v2r. i think you should be able to do 250 miles at parker. he has land all weekend. parker pre-run is on sunday. or move race to parker 450 and start at 5:00 am do 2 laps i think that would be 300 milesjust like silver state. 3rd largest class needs to step up to make it long races instead of sprints.

LOL oh ya thats right

 

[COGNITO]

Sorry guys if you took this as a rant! I just want to see this class grow. I have been around the sport for most of my life and have seen classes come & go. I think the UTV's have something good and for those who have not been around off-road desert racing for a long time, they might not be able to see it.

As far as Nerfing I have heard some guys talk about it in the past. And what I took from them is they were complaining about it, but it could be that they were new to the sport and dont really understand a nerf until it happened to them. You can talk about it and see it on Dust to Glory, but until you get a tap or push out of the way, you dont always know what it feels like or the goose egg dent it can leave in your cage. Also a nerf from a fast heavier vehicle can and will leave a mark, yet to them it was just a tap. BTW the thread about abusive nerfing at the Baja 1000 which took a team out was abusive. And what sucks is it came from a competitor in the same class, so that is not the people I'm talking about.

Also I feel much of the bad rap the UTV have gotten is from races like Vegas to Reno where Robby and some of the TT/Class 1 guys were mixing it up with the UTV's a few years ago. I believe RG lost the overall by a few seconds and it was partially blamed on the dust from the UTV's. That to me is when I saw the "Court of RDC" start really smack talking the "Golf Carts" But once again, I blame much of that on starting the UTV's with the bikes. They should be in the car classes, not bike classes.

i appreciate your input, we are on the same page. Plus you have a bigger voice than us golf cart guys over there on Race Dezert and i applaud you for that and your views on UTVs. Thank you sir!

 

[COGNITO]

Another suggestion, horn or siren decibel levels. There may need to be more of a rule here on the level of noise it creates. Some people get thru tech with a 'meep meep' horn and that isnt gonna be heard by anyone in the gas with a helmet on.

 

[NIKAL]

i appreciate your input, we are on the same page. Plus you have a bigger voice than us golf cart guys over there on Race Dezert and i applaud you for that and your views on UTVs. Thank you sir!

No problem, I can say that I have become a UTV fan since we bought our XP4 for the family. We have had a blast with it. My 4 year old daughter thinks its the best thing ever! For me, until I saw the potential I did not give UTV's a thought in regards to racing. And it took me owning one to see it.

I wish I had the finances to build a new race project. If I did it might be a race UTV. I watch and see what everyone is building and I get the twitch! My gears start turning, I have so many ideas, ideas that no one has yet done, at least not from what I have seen.

On a side note, If there was one rule change I would like to see it would be to increase the max tire size a bit.

 

[the stripping shop]

i think a flashing front light and orange lights on front so you can see them coming. and rear light ex the bitd blue light you can turn off so can tell the person behind you "i see you i will pull over in safe spot". when turned off or on. Then you wont get nerfed but if light is not on or off which ever way you pick then game on.

 

[Bajaxp]

On a side note, If there was one rule change I would like to see it would be to increase the max tire size a bit.[/QUOTE]

I would also agree with this, but not yet. The OEM's are just catching on to the benefits of larger OD tires but i don't think the current driveline/steering/suspension components are up to the added rotating mass. But the XP1000 and Mav are a step in the right direction. As a class we have collectively have become much faster and S L O W L Y we are gaining a tad bit of respect. We have moved past a lot of classes in terms of speed, but I still wonder why a 2/1600 is faster. We weigh close to the same, (aybe some of our cars could be lighter) we make more power, have 4wd, more suspension travel. My answer...is tire O.D. Something like a 33" Super Digger would be interesting. Right now some are still using low pressure 'ATV tires' but our weight and speed are far beyond the design limits of these. Some are using LT tires, but they are heavy. Things that make you go Hmmmm!

 

[NIKAL]

i think a flashing front light and orange lights on front so you can see them coming. and rear light ex the bitd blue light you can turn off so can tell the person behind you "i see you i will pull over in safe spot". when turned off or on. Then you wont get nerfed but if light is not on or off which ever way you pick then game on.

A few problems I see with this. Score & BITD will never let you have control over the rear facing lights. There is a reason they want them on the ignition and not on a manual switch. Amber rear light is to keep you from getting run over by a faster car. Blue light as you know is to let the faster vehicle know your in a slower class. If you had control to turn those off, you are now able to play games with the competitor and those "games" could cause injury. Back when I was just a kid and my dad & grandfather were racing, There were no amber lights. The old trick was to turn off your tail lights as to not help the competitors behind you. Many, many years ago during the Baja 1000 Mark McMillin ran the last 50-80 miles with only one head light on so that the lead vehicle he was racing would only see one head light, and not think it was him, but a motorcycle. Coming to the finish Mark turned on his lights and followed the guy into the finish. On time Mark won the Baja 1000. This is just an example of how people played games with lights.

As far as a front light, there is nothing stopping you from running one so people can see you coming. The good & bad is; The good people see you coming. A slower car will hopefully see you and move over before you get on their bumper. Unless they dont want to move as they think you are in their class and they want to hold you up as long as possible. Then Jack Rabbit if they can. But depending on dust & terrain they might not see you until you are there anyways. Justin ran light on the front of the class 1 car at this last Henderson BITD race, as he was the first car off the line and he knew some finishers from the morning race were still on the course. He was hoping it would help get threw traffic easier.

The bad side is your competitors can see your lights and thus gives them more of a chance to Jack Rabbit on you. In Rob McCachrens speech at the finish line of the Henderson 250 he mention how he & Justin were trading the overall lead back & forth on the last lap. He said the last several miles he was able to keep check on Justin and only push as hard as he needed too, as he could see & watch Justin's front lights.

 

[NIKAL]

I would also agree with this, but not yet. The OEM's are just catching on to the benefits of larger OD tires but i don't think the current driveline/steering/suspension components are up to the added rotating mass. But the XP1000 and Mav are a step in the right direction. As a class we have collectively have become much faster and S L O W L Y we are gaining a tad bit of respect. We have moved past a lot of classes in terms of speed, but I still wonder why a 2/1600 is faster. We weigh close to the same, (aybe some of our cars could be lighter) we make more power, have 4wd, more suspension travel. My answer...is tire O.D. Something like a 33" Super Digger would be interesting. Right now some are still using low pressure 'ATV tires' but our weight and speed are far beyond the design limits of these. Some are using LT tires, but they are heavy. Things that make you go Hmmmm!

Now your thinking my way! Bigger tire smaller hole. Plus the best tire in off-road racing is not available to you guys. Super Digger 3 would be the ultimate UTV tire IMO. Super light, tons of grip, perfect shape. Everything about the Yokohama is perfect in my mind for the UTV. Plus I think the 33 inch tire is the perfect size for limited cars in off-road racing. Running a 33 inch tire would open up a ton of options for the UTV class.

I think the reason the 1600 is faster is they take way more of a pounding. A 1600 car only has 10 inches of front travel, but you can pound the sh!t out of one and not fail. The UTV has more power, but you have this one big weak link. A belt. You cant keep your foot in it like a 1600 car. No way! Our trans guy has told us in the past that we need to keep our foot in it more as he can see stress marks on the back side of our R&P. So the long & short of it, the front side of our R&P is stronger and we need to keep our foot in it more and not lift as much in the bumps! Now that is scary!

Matt I cant tell you to much, because if I did come across the financing, I would have to build a car to beat you Jagged X guys. And my track record is not bad either! <label for="rb_iconid_10">

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[facteryfmf]

i think a flashing front light and orange lights on front so you can see them coming. and rear light ex the bitd blue light you can turn off so can tell the person behind you "i see you i will pull over in safe spot". when turned off or on. Then you wont get nerfed but if light is not on or off which ever way you pick then game on.

Lately I have been flashing our front Ambers instead of the horn when coming onto other UTVs as I don't feel like even our siren is loud enough. I think the flashing orange lights are better. But my driver keeps yelling at me when I do It...

 

[Bajaxp]

Now your thinking my way! Bigger tire smaller hole. Plus the best tire in off-road racing is not available to you guys. Super Digger 3 would be the ultimate UTV tire IMO. Super light, tons of grip, perfect shape. Everything about the Yokohama is perfect in my mind for the UTV. Plus I think the 33 inch tire is the perfect size for limited cars in off-road racing. Running a 33 inch tire would open up a ton of options for the UTV class.

I think the reason the 1600 is faster is they take way more of a pounding. A 1600 car only has 10 inches of front travel, but you can pound the sh!t out of one and not fail. The UTV has more power, but you have this one big weak link. A belt. You cant keep your foot in it like a 1600 car. No way! Our trans guy has told us in the past that we need to keep our foot in it more as he can see stress marks on the back side of our R&P. So the long & short of it, the front side of our R&P is stronger and we need to keep our foot in it more and not lift as much in the bumps! Now that is scary!

Matt I cant tell you to much, because if I did come across the financing, I would have to build a car to beat you Jagged X guys. And my track record is not bad either! <LABEL for=rb_iconid_10>

</LABEL>

I sincerely hope you do find the financing and build a UTV and come racing with us. It is a growing class and we welcome everyone. Personally I love seeing the class grow and seeing the class get exponentially faster. We are racing with modern technology and the rules keep things fair, but there is freedom to experiment. The bottom line is UTV racing is just plain fun. BTW, I have raced V2R in a 2/1600 and OMG those things can take a beating, but it is a very rough ride!

 

[the stripping shop]

A few problems I see with this. Score & BITD will never let you have control over the rear facing lights. There is a reason they want them on the ignition and not on a manual switch. Amber rear light is to keep you from getting run over by a faster car. Blue light as you know is to let the faster vehicle know your in a slower class. If you had control to turn those off, you are now able to play games with the competitor and those "games" could cause injury.
i was more thinking since utv have to run 1 orange blinking 1 orange steady 1 blue steady and 1 blue blinking. you could make ex the blinking blue light you turn off when you see someone behind you to let them know i see you i will pull over in safe area for both of us. you still have the rest of your safety lights on you only use one.I will tell our lights are on a switch because in AZ your are not allowed to have a flashing blue light. and yes i was pulled over when playing in desert cop was not to happy.blue light is only for safety vehicle. if you had forward light on ex orange i can see you when you come up on me quicker and easier that is for all bitd particapants.brandon has the best one he made his light bar flash when he was on my ass. helped me to move over when he got close. plus you could see his orange lights through the dust

 

[the stripping shop]

stupid question if the prerun is sunday all 150 miles not 70 miles why cant we race all 150 mile loop if its already marked just saying.

 

[the stripping shop]

if you go off our fatest average time we could do 300 miles in 6.6 hours way before he closes race track on saturday. he goes off that time for v2r and ss at what time cars start in morning right. just saying

 

[badassmav]

I dont understand why if a G.P. finishing format is used, and three classes are bulked together (i.e. bikes, atv's, and utv's), that each class cant have its own grand prix finish. It appeared that in saturdays race, there was enough time between the start of our race, and the start of the unlimited race later on to have allowed said format. How unfair to Cognito if the car ahead of them (the last utv allowed to take a 3rd lap, I believe) broke immediately after beginning their third lap, and Cog was still strong and ready to pass and take that spot, and even another if the guys in front had problems. Only because of an unlucky draw or start position were good teams like Cognito not allowed to compete on the 3rd lap. We started 10 minutes late, or so, but I think our first lap was as fast as any lap laid down by our competition (54 Minutes, AND w/a flat tire) and yet, we were not allowed to race them based on a format needing repairs. It was pretty much carved in stone by the course length, and the bikes average speed that the rear utv starters had little to no chance to run a full race, for the win, with EVERY entrant in their class. What value is there to corrected time if you are not allowed to put the time in? How lame is that? (Just my way of saying, "I'm just sayin')......

 

[dmurray]

Great thread. Our suggestions would be the following. At the parker 250 in Jan. We run with bikes and quads. spread our UTV starting time back say 30 min or 1 hour so we are not up on the slower bike quad guys. This is a huge safety issue. I dont want to hurt a bike or quad guy and currently its not if, but when it will happen. Need a bigger gap on starts. We are running 70mph 3 ft off these guys and its not safe.

Secondly need a pass alert system including bike and quads so they know when we are on them. (this also helps when we have trucks buggies on us at ss300 and vtor) Keeps everyone safe.

Henderson 250 have us run with the 2nd race of the day the 2 lap limited guys. Our times are right there- (I know they run a rougher section) but we should be right in the mix. (we may actually be slowed down by them if we start in the back???? ) - if we must run with the bikes just put us back 15-30 min and have it be a 3 lap race GP based on UTVS.

Lastly, get rid of the throw out race. We all come prepared to race. Even if someone wins parker 250, the race is most likely still thrown out because of the low points value. Keep all the races in there and let who ever does better overall take the win. (if all the races were equal points than I could see a throw out, but they are not and does not mean that the best record wins but he who does best at certain races.) SCORE does not have a throw out??

See everyone in 2014!

 

[chill720]

I ran V2R last year until motor blew at 87miles. Lots of help from friends (including Bret!)
Will be doing complete BITD season in 14 so I don't have any real suggestions other than what Bret said, lets run the full 250 miles, I live in East TN so I am even further than Bret!
And Justin and Jim, this is Chris (talked to you on phone yesterday)
Thanks for the help!
Look forward to meeting everyone in 2014.

 

[the stripping shop]

i like what murry said about points. there are only about 4 teams running for championship after v2r anyways. casey changed the rule to get more people to come at end of year that were running season points. it looks like it didnt help other than losing some championships.

 

[Bajaxp]

Great thread. Our suggestions would be the following. At the parker 250 in Jan. We run with bikes and quads. spread our UTV starting time back say 30 min or 1 hour so we are not up on the slower bike quad guys. This is a huge safety issue. I dont want to hurt a bike or quad guy and currently its not if, but when it will happen. Need a bigger gap on starts. We are running 70mph 3 ft off these guys and its not safe.

Secondly need a pass alert system including bike and quads so they know when we are on them. (this also helps when we have trucks buggies on us at ss300 and vtor) Keeps everyone safe.

Henderson 250 have us run with the 2nd race of the day the 2 lap limited guys. Our times are right there- (I know they run a rougher section) but we should be right in the mix. (we may actually be slowed down by them if we start in the back???? ) - if we must run with the bikes just put us back 15-30 min and have it be a 3 lap race GP based on UTVS.

Lastly, get rid of the throw out race. We all come prepared to race. Even if someone wins parker 250, the race is most likely still thrown out because of the low points value. Keep all the races in there and let who ever does better overall take the win. (if all the races were equal points than I could see a throw out, but they are not and does not mean that the best record wins but he who does best at certain races.) SCORE does not have a throw out??

See everyone in 2014!

I also think that the double points races make the situation you are describing worse. I don't have an issue with V2R being worth more points than say the SS300, because it is obviously longer, but there shouldn't be double points.

 

[dmurray]

Matt, I agree. Maybe just double points at the final race of the year? These changes are like 'wildcards" and kind of create an element of luck in a game of skill. Either way its good to see our class grow and move in the right direction.