Vegas to Reno tips

dirtguy

Member
With the big race coming up soon and so many teams that may not have any experience with this race I thought that a thread offering some of the hard learned lessons from the more experienced people might be in order. Any and all are encouraged share or ask questions. Disclaimer - there is always more than one way to do it. If your way is better then go with that.

As for me - our team has been in 5 V2R's. Two in UTV's and three in 7200 including Vegas 2 reno the long way in 2009. To be honest we have had our struggles with this race but we always learned a lot and had a great time doing it.

First tip - beware of vapor lock !!!

Because of the altitude and temperatures encountered at this race the likelihood of vapor lock is much greater here than any other BITD race. If you are not proactive in setting up your fuel system you will probably suffer from it. Racers that have never had a problem with it ever before will see it here and do not let anybody tell you that vapor lock only affects carburetors not fuel injection. that is just not true.

The simple explanation of what causes vapor lock is the reduced atmospheric pressure due to the altitude and temperature causes the fuel to boil at a lower temperature than normal, just like water. Under race conditions if the fuel in the fuel line or fuel rail reaches that temp then the boiling will stop the fuel from going to the engine and you are stopped until it cools down. Usually watching all the guys you just passed in the last 100 miles go by.

So what can we do about it?

A careful examination of your entire fuel system with the thought of trying to reduce the transfer of heat to your fuel is crucial. This may entail rerouting fuel lines, the use of high tech insulation designed for this and even fuel coolers.

The design of your fuel system also plays a part. Return systems (the excess fuel that your engine does not burn is returned to the tank) are generally better because the fuel does not have as much time to sit there and preheat prior to being used. Return systems if not factory do require a fuel pressure regulator and some plumbing but overall it is a better setup. Even a factory return system would benefit from a good quality regulator for consistent fuel pressure.

The down side to the return system is that as it recirculates the unused fuel it returns to the tank a little warmer each time until the fuel is nearing its boiling point just prior to being sent to the engine. Thats why once you get a vapor lock the next one will be much sooner. We have had the truck come into the pit with the fuel cell hot enough to be uncomfortable to the touch.

So if after you have done everything you can to prevent vapor lock and you are still concerned or if you have a problem what else can you do?

Thermal mass- The fuel itself is the mass so by choosing what pit to fuel at you introduce cool fuel to the entire system and ward off the potential of vapor lock at the times that are most likely to produce it. See there is more to pit strategy than just range.

The first time I saw this was some Trophy truck teams stopping for fuel at pit 2 Bonnie Claire that is less than 60 miles into the race. When I asked about it they said they were just changing their pit timing as to be fueling at less crowded pits but then I saw that they were only fueling from dump cans and the cans were sitting in bins of ice. It took me a little while but I figured it out.

Our last line of defense was a small Co2 bottle but you need to be careful about very cold on very hot.

Some people believe in using avgas because it is formulated to raise the boiling point for aircraft use but in my experience it is not a good race fuel as it was designed for a completely opposite set of parameters (constant and low RPM) and the vehicle needs to be retuned for it.

I was inspired by badassmav to share things that could help others.

Tim

hope it was not boring.
more tips to come
 
Very insightful. This could be an eye opener for some people who've never races at altitude. Sharing info like this doesn't "level the playing field" as they say. It allows everyone to further the technology and to be pushed to be a pioneer and think outside of the box. Great info!!!!!
 
With the big race coming up soon and so many teams that may not have any experience with this race I thought that a thread offering some of the hard learned lessons from the more experienced people might be in order. Any and all are encouraged share or ask questions. Disclaimer - there is always more than one way to do it. If your way is better then go with that.

As for me - our team has been in 5 V2R's. Two in UTV's and three in 7200 including Vegas 2 reno the long way in 2009. To be honest we have had our struggles with this race but we always learned a lot and had a great time doing it.

First tip - beware of vapor lock !!!

Because of the altitude and temperatures encountered at this race the likelihood of vapor lock is much greater here than any other BITD race. If you are not proactive in setting up your fuel system you will probably suffer from it. Racers that have never had a problem with it ever before will see it here and do not let anybody tell you that vapor lock only affects carburetors not fuel injection. that is just not true.

The simple explanation of what causes vapor lock is the reduced atmospheric pressure due to the altitude and temperature causes the fuel to boil at a lower temperature than normal, just like water. Under race conditions if the fuel in the fuel line or fuel rail reaches that temp then the boiling will stop the fuel from going to the engine and you are stopped until it cools down. Usually watching all the guys you just passed in the last 100 miles go by.

So what can we do about it?

A careful examination of your entire fuel system with the thought of trying to reduce the transfer of heat to your fuel is crucial. This may entail rerouting fuel lines, the use of high tech insulation designed for this and even fuel coolers.

The design of your fuel system also plays a part. Return systems (the excess fuel that your engine does not burn is returned to the tank) are generally better because the fuel does not have as much time to sit there and preheat prior to being used. Return systems if not factory do require a fuel pressure regulator and some plumbing but overall it is a better setup. Even a factory return system would benefit from a good quality regulator for consistent fuel pressure.

The down side to the return system is that as it recirculates the unused fuel it returns to the tank a little warmer each time until the fuel is nearing its boiling point just prior to being sent to the engine. Thats why once you get a vapor lock the next one will be much sooner. We have had the truck come into the pit with the fuel cell hot enough to be uncomfortable to the touch.

So if after you have done everything you can to prevent vapor lock and you are still concerned or if you have a problem what else can you do?

Thermal mass- The fuel itself is the mass so by choosing what pit to fuel at you introduce cool fuel to the entire system and ward off the potential of vapor lock at the times that are most likely to produce it. See there is more to pit strategy than just range.

The first time I saw this was some Trophy truck teams stopping for fuel at pit 2 Bonnie Claire that is less than 60 miles into the race. When I asked about it they said they were just changing their pit timing as to be fueling at less crowded pits but then I saw that they were only fueling from dump cans and the cans were sitting in bins of ice. It took me a little while but I figured it out.

Our last line of defense was a small Co2 bottle but you need to be careful about very cold on very hot.

Some people believe in using avgas because it is formulated to raise the boiling point for aircraft use but in my experience it is not a good race fuel as it was designed for a completely opposite set of parameters (constant and low RPM) and the vehicle needs to be retuned for it.

I was inspired by badassmav to share things that could help others.

Tim

hope it was not boring.
more tips to come
Thanks Tim, for sharing. Yeah, we struggled with vapor lock last year at V2R. Actually, all season long. We didn't solve it until the 1000. I remember researching the issue, and I want to say that the boiling point of gasoline in the V2R environment was as low as 150* F :eek:! Tell me about it. The ambient temp was already 110* to start with, so there isn't much room for poor fuel plumbing layout/design. It was 18-22 minutes of down time each time it vapor locked, before it cooled down enough to get going again. By the time we lost the motor around RM 400, we vapor locked no less than 4 times.

I will add to Tim's handy tips to expect less mileage in the heat of V2R (much less if you are vapor locking. I think we were getting 5 mpg in that race). We were also fueling more frequently, as Tim suggests, in order to help keep the fuel temps as low as possible. On our last stop, we had a large bag of ice that we just threw on top of the fuel cell, right over the outlet lines. It was still there 50 miles later, and still had some cubes of ice left! I remember Cory saying that he strapped bags of ice atop his fuel cell en route to his podium at last years Baja 500. Poor mans cold can, I guess.

Another great tip from Tim is the use of thermal protection where ever and when ever possible. One of our sponsors is Heatshield Products, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPUtnsDWd3E. They have an endless line of products to help keep heat in, out, or away from where it does or does not belong. There "reflective" products turn back up to 95% of radiant heat. Amazing!

I'll attach a couple of pics showing the application of their products on out car. Notice the engine pic. All fuel lines are enclosed in the orange thermal sheathing, and where they pass by a heat source, various types of reflective coverings are used to combat against radiant heat. All exhaust pipes are wrapped with Heatshield's Lava wrap. This stuff can withstand 1,200* constant exposure, or 2,000* intermittent exposure!

I'd just like to add before I crash out that the single most effective fix for the vaporlock issues that plagued us last season was to move the fuel pumps inside of the fuel cell.
 

Attachments

  • spare parts totes 014.jpg
    spare parts totes 014.jpg
    712.6 KB · Views: 48
  • spare parts totes 016.jpg
    spare parts totes 016.jpg
    632.1 KB · Views: 41
  • Flomaster complete.jpg
    Flomaster complete.jpg
    682.5 KB · Views: 38
  • post paint 003.jpg
    post paint 003.jpg
    751.1 KB · Views: 40
braided fuel lines and dei wrap helped us out. Our 2 pumps were mounted as low as possible and outside of fuel cell with screen in side panel to get air on them.
 
Mearsman - Thanks, as hard as everybody works just to go racing it is nice not to have to start from square one every time. It is funny that as you break the car down into the various subsystems and really try to understand and improve them you find out how little you knew about it. Jeez it's just a fuel line.


Reid - Thanks for the input. You guys had to learn the hard way as well. It is beyond frustrating to get that radio call from the driver and all you can say is sit there till it cools.

I know the conventional wisdom is to mount the fuel pumps in the fuel cell but I found that to be counterintuitive to use the fuel that we were trying to keep cool - to cool the pumps. I don't have the science to prove it either way so go with what works.

We went with a high quality Weldon fuel pump mounted as close to the cell as possible because as you know pumps work better as pushers than pullers and as Rito mentioned air flow for cooling.

One caution about exhaust heat wrap is that it will trap moisture and ruin a nice exhaust system. So guys after you wash it be sure to run it long enough to cook all the water out or unwrap and rewrap for your race prep.


Rito - My hands are to soft to be tortured by braided fuel lines so we went with pushlock but we did increase the size to -8 to increase the thermal mass in the fuel lines.
Are you guys coming back I know we want to. Say hello to your dad.

Tim
 
sorry not dei but heat sleeve worked its by cool it. tim been helping my cousin with his class 1, so not sure if going to do its hot what tell September to make up my mind.
 
Mearsman - Thanks, as hard as everybody works just to go racing it is nice not to have to start from square one every time. It is funny that as you break the car down into the various subsystems and really try to understand and improve them you find out how little you knew about it. Jeez it's just a fuel line.


Reid - Thanks for the input. You guys had to learn the hard way as well. It is beyond frustrating to get that radio call from the driver and all you can say is sit there till it cools.

I know the conventional wisdom is to mount the fuel pumps in the fuel cell but I found that to be counterintuitive to use the fuel that we were trying to keep cool - to cool the pumps. I don't have the science to prove it either way so go with what works.

We went with a high quality Weldon fuel pump mounted as close to the cell as possible because as you know pumps work better as pushers than pullers and as Rito mentioned air flow for cooling.

One caution about exhaust heat wrap is that it will trap moisture and ruin a nice exhaust system. So guys after you wash it be sure to run it long enough to cook all the water out or unwrap and rewrap for your race prep.


Rito - My hands are to soft to be tortured by braided fuel lines so we went with pushlock but we did increase the size to -8 to increase the thermal mass in the fuel lines.
Are you guys coming back I know we want to. Say hello to your dad.

Tim
One thing to keep in mind when using a fuel pump to suck gas before pushing it through the lines: Gasoline boils at a lower temperature when in a vacuum, and if the pumps aren't mounted low enough, there will be a vacuum condition created between the pump and the tank. That was the main problem that we had last year, hence the 150* F figure I quoted in my last post for the boiling point for us at V2R.

I'm glad to see others such as yourself sharing good, tangible information that you and your team sacrificed time and money to acquire. Just because you or I sacrificed and learned through the school of hard knocks doesn't mean that everyone else has to! I'm in a 4 year rut, but I feel good about being here if I can help a guy to put more money into his kids college fund, or pay an additional mortgage payment by doing something as simple as sharing what I've learned. It kind of makes it all worthwhile, don't you think? Yeah, I know. I'm a martyr. I got that from my Mom!
 
Reid, I have always liked your posts and am glad to see more people stepping up to share their knowledge... I appreciate the tech articles and insights from those that have been able to learn from your mistakes. I have always been a person to offer up any knowledge or help I can, friend or foe, competitor or spectator. We aren't racing for MILLIONS or careers that I know of, and if you believe in your abilities and teams abilities, it won't matter how much info you give up, you will still come out on top.... Thanks again for articles like these...
 
Fuel pumps like to push and don't like to pull. Think about that when deciding where to mount your fuel pump. We ran an external fuel pump on the old Bobsled and had zero vapor locking issues and now run internal. But in both cases they were mounted in a location where they were pushing fuel and not trying to draw it. In other words the inlet side already had a wee bit of head pressure. My 2 pesos.
 
Reid, I have always liked your posts and am glad to see more people stepping up to share their knowledge... I appreciate the tech articles and insights from those that have been able to learn from your mistakes. I have always been a person to offer up any knowledge or help I can, friend or foe, competitor or spectator. We aren't racing for MILLIONS or careers that I know of, and if you believe in your abilities and teams abilities, it won't matter how much info you give up, you will still come out on top.... Thanks again for articles like these...
Thanks Garrett. I'm not threatened by teams using what works for us. The people in our class that chime in here at UTVUG do not believe that the cars we race are fast enough to be exploited by driving skills alone. I beg to differ. They haven't ridden with Marc on a graded road, flying up (or down) a mountain pass, hanging the rear end out inches away from the edge with the throttle nailed, steering and accelerating his way around the unprotected turns with total control and confidence, when most are driving those high risk zones with caution.

How else does one explain our results this season? 4 races. 2 firsts and 2 seconds with a car 400+ pounds heavier than our competition, and with a clutch that is so far from being dialed in that we can not sustain speeds above 65 with out blowing a belt. Keep in mind that those 2 second place finishes were only minutes away from a first. 5 or 9 at the Mint I believe, and 14 at Imperial Valley, and in both instances, we had 1/2 hour of down time changing a belt, where, at least by Big Jims admittance, the Polaris guys can get it done in 5 or 10 minutes. Well, Mexico is a given Only we can beat us there.

I know that I come across as arrogant some times, but I do not intend to. I am all about total disclosure. I only say what I believe to be the truth, and the truth is that we probably wont be racing UTE's next year, because it is not fun for either Marc or myself (well, this forum IS a blast for me. I can't deny that.) Me because of the never ending 80+ hour weeks and having to be in crowded public places (and go to Mexico. I hate Mexico. I feel vulnerable there, and the border always sucks), and Marc because he says that he is bored in driving the Monster Mav, and therefore the money is not well spent. This years 1000 will cost him, upwards of 30,000.00 out of his own pocket. For what? He'll solo it, and most likely win it, if I don't let him down. It's just too slow for his blood. It can't scare him, therefore, it is not fun. I'm not a racer. I don't understand it, but that's what he says. It is obvious that I love to boast, but that stems from my personal insecurities and lack of confidence in myself. As I wind down my time here, this forum produces gratification to me through sharing and helping others, and just feeling important or needed again. That is thanks to members like you who acknowledge me for what we are accomplishing, and how I am sharing it with the masses.

Man, am I manic today or what? I gotta get back in the shop. Thanks again for your support, Garrett.
 
Some people believe in using avgas because it is formulated to raise the boiling point for aircraft use but in my experience it is not a good race fuel as it was designed for a completely opposite set of parameters (constant and low RPM) and the vehicle needs to be retuned for it.

I have to disagree on the whole AV Gas thing as I have used it for over 20 years in various things and it is the Best Fuel you will find as it is always consistent since peoples lives count on it and the government regulates it.
I have used it in my Boats that made any where form 800 to 1500 hp and there not some low RPM engines. and they run flawlessly on AV gas. I can name numerous shops that run it. But the long standing argument is like you stated and its Patently false on its face. Sorry but its True. Run it and you to will see the benefits just tune for it like you would tune for any Fuel.;)
 
Warlock - I put that paragraph in there because I knew that someone would bring it up as an alternative to mitigate vapor lock issues without addressing the root cause. This falls under my disclaimer - if it works for you then go with that.

I have not had the same level of success with avgas as you have in racers or airplanes. The fact that the government regulates it does not make me feel any better. Quite the contrary.

But if I had the choice between avgas and race gas from that station in Parker I will go with avgas every time. (If you are one of those go-fast boats on the river you know what I mean):)
 
It looks like this years V2R is about the same as in 2010 so you will get to avoid some of the nasty silt sections but don"t worry you should still find plenty so you can display those mad driving skills. When we were racing a UTV in V2R we started behind the last car class so now it should not be as torn up. We did not have a problem with the torn up track but the pit closing times were a major problem.

Second tip - air filtration

OK who cares as long as it works but I have sanded to many engines to go with the so called experts. This is one of the most debated subjects in offroad oiled foam, oiled gauze, folded paper. But at the end of the race all that matters is you made it to the end and did not thrash your engine.

So if you were to imagine the perfect air filter what would it's characteristics be
1 -make the air perfectly clean
2 -provide the volume of air the engine needs
3 -provide enough capacity to get to the finish
4 -self cleaning
5 - easy to replace
6 - packaging - as in size and how close can I get it to the intake in clean air
7 -cheap

Now lets look at each

Oiled foam
1 - from my experience they work pretty well as long as they are cleaned, oiled, and sealed properly

2 - if they are sized and oiled properly they work well

3 - this is a problem because as they load up flow goes down.

4 - the oil on them precludes any ability to self clean

5 - generally they are easy to replace

6 - can be a problem if you are trying to mount them in clean air due to the need of a plenum depending on distance

7 - filters are cheap plenums are not


oiled gauze
1 - Sorry I have had terrible experience with these for the desert. there are other applications that they are ok but not on my race engine

2 - They do flow good

3 - it seems they work well even when loaded up and the dirtier they get the better they filter

4 - once again the oil does not let it self clean

5 - replacement should be easy

6 - with the same caveat as the foam

7 - not to bad

I do not want to be down on K&N, I use them for my chase truck and motorhome but this is for birds and rocks not my race engine.

Folded paper - the good stuff not oem
1 - as good as it gets -look at CAT and intensive mine equipment

2 - properly sized the flow is there

3 - properly sized they will get you to the finish

4 - being dry the vibration will self clean to a certain extent

5 - not as easy but If sized properly will go the distance

6 - can be a challenge due to size requirements

7 - more expensive

Sized properly I think the UMP style filter is best but if you decide to go with one of the others just bring plenty of spares and be ready to replace them as needed

once again if your system works and you are happy then go with that

I know that some of this is basic but I see teams wanting to go desert racing from other parts of the USA and they may have no idea the havoc that the silt and dust can bring.

Tim
 
tim you forgot the best filter out there the easiest to change the filter will not let any dirt buy. We have been running this filter since we lost v2r with the old school technology round filter canister. which let dirt in through seal when starts clooging design that way. POWER CORE by DONALDSONFILTERS the only filter that works every time not 60% of the time.
 
You are right Rito that looks like an excellent alternative. Once we went with the dual stage Donaldson filter setup with such good results I moved on to other projects and to be honest missed that one.

Tim
 
It looks like this years V2R is about the same as in 2010 so you will get to avoid some of the nasty silt sections but don"t worry you should still find plenty so you can display those mad driving skills. When we were racing a UTV in V2R we started behind the last car class so now it should not be as torn up. We did not have a problem with the torn up track but the pit closing times were a major problem.

Second tip - air filtration

OK who cares as long as it works but I have sanded to many engines to go with the so called experts. This is one of the most debated subjects in offroad oiled foam, oiled gauze, folded paper. But at the end of the race all that matters is you made it to the end and did not thrash your engine.

So if you were to imagine the perfect air filter what would it's characteristics be
1 -make the air perfectly clean
2 -provide the volume of air the engine needs
3 -provide enough capacity to get to the finish
4 -self cleaning
5 - easy to replace
6 - packaging - as in size and how close can I get it to the intake in clean air
7 -cheap

Now lets look at each

Oiled foam
1 - from my experience they work pretty well as long as they are cleaned, oiled, and sealed properly

2 - if they are sized and oiled properly they work well

3 - this is a problem because as they load up flow goes down.

4 - the oil on them precludes any ability to self clean

5 - generally they are easy to replace

6 - can be a problem if you are trying to mount them in clean air due to the need of a plenum depending on distance

7 - filters are cheap plenums are not


oiled gauze
1 - Sorry I have had terrible experience with these for the desert. there are other applications that they are ok but not on my race engine

2 - They do flow good

3 - it seems they work well even when loaded up and the dirtier they get the better they filter

4 - once again the oil does not let it self clean

5 - replacement should be easy

6 - with the same caveat as the foam

7 - not to bad

I do not want to be down on K&N, I use them for my chase truck and motorhome but this is for birds and rocks not my race engine.

Folded paper - the good stuff not oem
1 - as good as it gets -look at CAT and intensive mine equipment

2 - properly sized the flow is there

3 - properly sized they will get you to the finish

4 - being dry the vibration will self clean to a certain extent

5 - not as easy but If sized properly will go the distance

6 - can be a challenge due to size requirements

7 - more expensive

Sized properly I think the UMP style filter is best but if you decide to go with one of the others just bring plenty of spares and be ready to replace them as needed

once again if your system works and you are happy then go with that

I know that some of this is basic but I see teams wanting to go desert racing from other parts of the USA and they may have no idea the havoc that the silt and dust can bring.

Tim
It's hard to make an argument against the Donaldson folded paper-style filters. It appears that the 6" x 12" canister filters provide an adequate surface area to strain the fine particle contaminants like silt, and still allow enough CFM air to flow through, at least to feed a 1,000 cc engine. When I got to the air filter in the post race tear down (now there's a phrase not all teams are privie to, but should be), I was amazed how much silt was packed around the outside of the filter element. Just setting the filter on the ground after removing it netted a pile of silt around the element. So, out of curiosity, I lightly tapped the filter base against the ground, and swept up the pile. I dumped it in my Fillrite, and lo and behold, over 400 ml of silt! Enough to fill the gearbox or differentials to their proper levels! The amazement was from the fact that the condition on the inside of the element was not indicative of what was happening on the outside. It did its job far better than I would have thought it could. I would imagine that if it were an oiled filter design like foam or cotton, the outer surface are would have been impregnated , and consequently clogged enough with silt, that it would have starved the engine of air.

I personally like the Baldwin brand of replacement elements over the Donaldson ones. They use a cushy, resilient closed cell neoprene gasket on the end as opposed to a thinner buna rubber style one like Donaldson uses, which doesn't have as much compliance, and upon my removing it after the first race, showed signs of cracking. The Baldwin also comes with a little thicker rubberized outer sealing washer. Unlike the cloth or foam based elements, I don't know if the folded paper ones are cleanable. I replace them every race because I dont know. I blow the used ones out from the inside, gently, with a wide stream of compressed air, and distribute them to the chase teams for spares in future races. If anybody can shed some light as to the ability of the filter elements to be cleaned and re-used, my ears are open.

A Side Note:
Unfortunately, in the eleventh hour on the day before the Baja, the throttle body needed replacing because of throttle response problems we were having with the stupid "fly by wire" throttle control, and our inability to calibrate it using the "BUDS" electronic management system that BRP incorporates into their stock ECU units. The BRP racing department (I guess that's what they are called) gave us their "hopped up" version at the Mint race (kind of like the ones you read about that other privateers are "flashing" to achieve an additional 500 rpm's). Evidentally, the modified program in the ECU requires a password or something similar to access it. I had no password. I had a helper, and the old throttle body that came out with the last ruined engine. Against my better judgement (why is it that when we get that 'gut feeling' about something, we don't follow our instincts?), I allowed a helping hand to perform the task of switching out the throttle body, as I was overwhelmed with bigger issues. It's only 4 bolts, one electrical plug, and a grooved rubber gasket ring right? Well, apparently he did not get the gasket seated properly, and all of the badass holding back of silt that the air filter did for us was oveshadowed by a violation of the system farther down the line. I guess he didn't get the gasket properly seated in the groove as the picture illustrates, and here's reid again upping his weeks to 100 hrs. to again replace an engine. We lost compression in the #1 cylinder as a result of this oversight.
 

Attachments

  • Air box 016.jpg
    Air box 016.jpg
    717.8 KB · Views: 20
  • air filter 014.jpg
    air filter 014.jpg
    590.9 KB · Views: 16
  • dies ship paps damage 005.jpg
    dies ship paps damage 005.jpg
    635.7 KB · Views: 15
  • filter 005.jpg
    filter 005.jpg
    592.3 KB · Views: 15
  • OLD FOX SHOCK GRAPH 003.jpg
    OLD FOX SHOCK GRAPH 003.jpg
    644.8 KB · Views: 16

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
17,313
Messages
179,416
Members
12,155
Latest member
dhakdhaki
Back
Top