Polaris Long Travel Industries Suspension on a '15 XP1000
- Thread starter UTVUGJake
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Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
we have been slammed in the shop lately and haven't had a chance to be on here, thanks for the pics Jake.. here are a few of them as we build them all Chromoly plate laser cut and CNC bent, TIG welded and utilize a 7/8" FK uniball and 17-4 stainless pin up front...
badassmav
Well-Known Member
There is much to be desired about these images. On the upper arm, I like the way you went with a full radius on the "tie rod bridge", as opposed to abrupt angle changes in increments. I was in a shop last week that had a car with boxed arms from another manufacturer. The car experienced a hard frontal impact that buckled both upper arms right where the bridge was achieved by abrupt angle changes, rather than a smooth radius.
I also think it was wise that you fully welded the boxed arms prior to positioning the pivoting sleeve, or threaded bung, at the extremities of the arm. I assume the arm is re-fixtured after welding to attach the receiver(s) that accepts the pivot hardware.
For the lay-mans, notice how the ball jt./uniball receiver on the lower arm, and the inboard rear pivot on the upper arm are not yet welded, but the rest of the arms are. I don't care how rigid of a welding fixture one may use. If you fully weld the a arm, and all of its components while in a fixture, the distortion from welding will make the part difficult at best to remove from the jig, and the three mounting points of the arm after removal will no longer be where they were originally designed to be. UNLESS the piece is properly stress relieved while still in the fixture, at which point the arm would be freed of all residual stresses left behind from the welding process, and it's originally designed pick up points would all be in their proper places.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you will do a final fit on the weldment of the three mounting points before re-jigging the arm and welding in the receptacles for the pivoting hardware.
These pictures are worth a thousand words. Unfortunately for me, and fortunately for everybody else, I only have the time for a few hundred.
Good job LTI, on a sanitary product!
I also think it was wise that you fully welded the boxed arms prior to positioning the pivoting sleeve, or threaded bung, at the extremities of the arm. I assume the arm is re-fixtured after welding to attach the receiver(s) that accepts the pivot hardware.
For the lay-mans, notice how the ball jt./uniball receiver on the lower arm, and the inboard rear pivot on the upper arm are not yet welded, but the rest of the arms are. I don't care how rigid of a welding fixture one may use. If you fully weld the a arm, and all of its components while in a fixture, the distortion from welding will make the part difficult at best to remove from the jig, and the three mounting points of the arm after removal will no longer be where they were originally designed to be. UNLESS the piece is properly stress relieved while still in the fixture, at which point the arm would be freed of all residual stresses left behind from the welding process, and it's originally designed pick up points would all be in their proper places.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you will do a final fit on the weldment of the three mounting points before re-jigging the arm and welding in the receptacles for the pivoting hardware.
These pictures are worth a thousand words. Unfortunately for me, and fortunately for everybody else, I only have the time for a few hundred.
Good job LTI, on a sanitary product!Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
Thanks Reid, and yes you nailed it on the head on how we go about welding the arms, and about the stress risers that the angles add in the leg of the arm
There is much to be desired about these images. On the upper arm, I like the way you went with a full radius on the "tie rod bridge", as opposed to abrupt angle changes in increments. I was in a shop last week that had a car with boxed arms from another manufacturer. The car experienced a hard frontal impact that buckled both upper arms right where the bridge was achieved by abrupt angle changes, rather than a smooth radius.
I also think it was wise that you fully welded the boxed arms prior to positioning the pivoting sleeve, or threaded bung, at the extremities of the arm. I assume the arm is re-fixtured after welding to attach the receiver(s) that accepts the pivot hardware.
For the lay-mans, notice how the ball jt./uniball receiver on the lower arm, and the inboard rear pivot on the upper arm are not yet welded, but the rest of the arms are. I don't care how rigid of a welding fixture one may use. If you fully weld the a arm, and all of its components while in a fixture, the distortion from welding will make the part difficult at best to remove from the jig, and the three mounting points of the arm after removal will no longer be where they were originally designed to be. UNLESS the piece is properly stress relieved while still in the fixture, at which point the arm would be freed of all residual stresses left behind from the welding process, and it's originally designed pick up points would all be in their proper places.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume you will do a final fit on the weldment of the three mounting points before re-jigging the arm and welding in the receptacles for the pivoting hardware.
These pictures are worth a thousand words. Unfortunately for me, and fortunately for everybody else, I only have the time for a few hundred.
Reid, if you were building these arms and chassis for a custom desert racing build would you change shock length and mounting position?
This is a awesome looking kit BTW Brian and I like the uniball setup.
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
mearsman
Active Member
badassmav
Well-Known Member
Funny you should ask that because it is exactly what I am currently dealing with. We are having arms built for our car that are going to be in the +3 to +4 range. Marc has decided he wants to keep the shocks in the stock location, which I strongly advised him against doing so. It depends on whether or not the length of the arms are being modified. Anytime a control arm is lengthened, and the shock position stays put, the builder is asking the shock to work harder to compensate for an increased motion ratio. Shocks nowadays can answer that call rather well, but there is still a threshold that I believe should not be passed, nor even approached. That number is .55-.6, meaning that for every vertical inch of wheel travel, the shock strokes .55"-.6". The manufacturers of UTV's today seem to design the cars we buy from them with motion ratios in the .6-.65 range.
From what I can gather from this thread, the arms are all stock length and width, so unless the customer wanted the maximum shock performance to last over a longer period of time, I probably wouldn't mess with the shock mounting location.
With that being said, building from scratch, I will opt for stroking a shock as close to a 1 to 1 ratio as possible every time. The benefits of long-stroking a shock are indisputable. Besides lower operating temps and resistance to shock fade, one of the best benefits is the effect that small changes, such as external clickers, have on the damping stiffness of a shock. Since external clickers are merely a set up tool meant to be a last effort before having to go back internally to re valve the shock, it is nice if each click or adjustment setting has as big an influence as possible on the stiffness of the valving. The best way to maximize the clickers effect is to minimize the mechanical leverage on the shock, i.e. lower motion ratios in the .7-.9 range (for reference, a higher number like .9 means a lower ratio. Conversely, a high motion ratio would be identified by a lower number such as .4 or .3)
Another manifesto, thanks to Hans asking, "How say you, Reid".
Is there really such a thing as too much valid information?
motive
Active Member
I second everything Reid said. Not only are adjusters not as effective with a shock that is too short but the spring rates also skyrocket to compensate for the poor motion ratios. This puts added force and wear on components like shock mounts, a arm busing mounts, and the arms, and radius rods. You are more likely to bend an arm, egg out a bolt hole or even bend a shock shaft.
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
I will agree with both of you, when we design all of our long Travel kits we try and keep the shock motion ratio to 1.5 or lower, with that being said it's hard to sell a "long Travel kit" that would actually have less wheelTravel than the factory arm and try to explain to the customer that it works better because we have been all programed to believe more is better!! To build these arms as a +3 or whatever I would offer an upper shock tower to correct the motion ratio's
I agree. I would take 18 inches of good wheel travel over 21 of okay wheel travel anyday. I am curious why almost none of the top UTV teams run a longer shock with relocated mounts for better performance and durability. I know Reid did on the Monster Mav and I believe you did on a T4 race car. I raced a Wildcat with a 16 inch travel shock and the reduced leverage made the car turn much better and completely eliminated shock fade.
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
Yes all of our race cars run longer shocks and less motion ratio's
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
the XP set up?
mearsman
Active Member
Yeah, you're not really selling your product. If I'm in the market for a +2 or above xp long travel kit, there's only a couple viable options. Yeah you've shown pictures of your setup, but no detailed list of what you're getting or no price for that matter. Help me help you
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
Sorry I'm just a dumb fabricator I cannot sell or market my way out of a wet paper bag!!
The arms we have right now are a factory replacement that utilizes a 7/8" uniball and a stainless steel taper pin they are all chromoly plate. we are the only ones to go over the tie rod in a single smooth arc avoiding and stress risers in the bends of the material they weigh about 10 lbs over the stock tube arms and cost 1849.00 for the set we make a rear trailing arm that is all chromoly plate stock length and width and weighs a little less than the stock arm and the price is 1900.00 as we speak I am designing a LT kit with all the same design features just trying to figure out what would be the best length over stock would be with correct shock motion ratios .....
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
a couple more pics....
Long Travel Ind.
Human Welding Machine - UTVUnderground Approved
this is per side first pic is the stock arms the second is our arms
so the stock arms are 25 lbs. and ours arms are 35 lbs.
so the stock arms are 25 lbs. and ours arms are 35 lbs.
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