UTV racing rules Suggestions, volunteers, input please

[rupert14]

I know there has been some discussion about rules for BITD etc. Lets keep things posative, avoid getting personal, and try to contribute to the expansion of our sport.

We have two issues:

1. I think we can all agree that there needs to be some expansion of the regulation body that dictates and enforces the rules. I think everyone currently involved is doing there best to contribute to the sport but we all know the limitations and challenges that are now apparent. I am guessing that if we were willing to help, the groups currently making and enforcing the rules would welcome the support. I am willing to help. I can't go to every UTV race but I will do what I can. I will race the whole 2011 BITD series and possably the Whiplash series as well. I don't represent a manufacturer, sanctioning body, or anything other than the fact that I am a racer. I want to help and if you are, let us know who you are and what you can do to help.

2. Let's discuss possable solutions the the race rules. I feel we need to make the changes necessary to keep the classes as well attended as possable.

It has been stated that if the UTVRA increases the pro CC limit to 1000, then the attendance will drop. They should keep the 800 class and add a up to 1000cc to keep the racers they already have.

I agree with this but I would take it one step further. I would make any engine from 800-1000cc race together. SR-1, an R-1 in a Teryx, any factory 1000 etc. There is already a good turnout for the 800cc class, why change it? About the time we get a good turnout for a class, we change the rules. Just lump all over 800 together until that class is well attended and then split them up.

The goal is to get as many people out racing as possable. That is what makes it fun, builds the payback, and promotes the sport.

If we use the current rules and expand them to 1000cc then basically all the people that race rhinos will most likely drop out as well as some others. Rhinos are already underpowered but luckily there are still some coming out.

I see two possable solutions for desert racing:

#1
Keep the current 800 class and basically expand the sportsman class to include all motors up to 1000cc. Hopefully there will be no loss of the current up to 800 racers and there will inevitably be more of the 800-1000 as the manufacturers come out with bigger stuff. If the entries permit, it can be broken up next year. If the current 800 class is moved up to 1000, I agree that there will be some racers that are pushed out which is exactly what damages our sport.

#2
Have an experiment. Tell everyone that for one or two races, there will be an experimental "single cylnder class". Anything with one piston can race together. The reason I say this is because there are more rhinos out there than most other UTV's combined. We all know a race built rhino can be had for 15K or less race ready. If we could keep a class that somehow keeps the grass roots of UTV racing alive (affordable fun for everyone) then perhaps we could increase the number of racers coming out. In this economy it seems UTV racing is becoming a class that many folks can't afford. Cory once told me there is no such thing as cheap racing and I agree. Unfortunately the UTV class is getting more and more expensive. Years ago you could take your dune rhino, add a cage and long travel, and go race. Those days are over and there are many built rhinos sitting in garages collecting dust. I know several guys that would buy one and race but they know there is no class for them anymore.

For the short course guys, it seems the SR-1 class is well attended and it should be kept a separate class. I really don't have much to say there because I only race short course with Whiplash.

Bring your suggestions and volunteer to help if you can. I am willing to help, be on a board, or otherwise contribute however I can in order to further the sport.

 

[Darryl89]

I would go with #none, as I'm in the buildup stage of a 951cc Prowler for competing in BITD and you are excluding my XTZ.

I can understand that there are alot of Rhinos out there, personally, if I had one, it would become a SR1 very soon. This racing, racing means going fast. No, I don't want to see the small motors go away, but there does need to be some way to include all. Either break the Pro Class into 2 classes, or give the over 800cc motors a weight penalty, or just let them all run. We already have talked on another thread about this same possibility and most of the experienced desert racers said it doesn't really matter how many cc's you have.
Now if you push the 1000cc guys (which includes many 840 Teryx's, all the Can Am X's, the Arctic Cat XTZ's and the new John Deere's that are coming out) into a sportsman class, then I'll go find another place to race, if I win, hey I want some payback and points towards a championship, I'm sure many others will to.

As for the guys that have Rhinos laying around that won't be competitive against bigger bore machines, convert them to SR1s. Or run them as they are and let the better prepped machine win. It's the driver, the prep and pit/repair action that will win or lose a desert race usually.

 

[rupert14]

I would go with #none, as I'm in the buildup stage of a 951cc Prowler for competing in BITD and you are excluding my XTZ.

I can understand that there are alot of Rhinos out there, personally, if I had one, it would become a SR1 very soon. This racing, racing means going fast. No, I don't want to see the small motors go away, but there does need to be some way to include all. Either break the Pro Class into 2 classes, or give the over 800cc motors a weight penalty, or just let them all run. We already have talked on another thread about this same possibility and most of the experienced desert racers said it doesn't really matter how many cc's you have.
Now if you push the 1000cc guys (which includes many 840 Teryx's, all the Can Am X's, the Arctic Cat XTZ's and the new John Deere's that are coming out) into a sportsman class, then I'll go find another place to race, if I win, hey I want some payback and points towards a championship, I'm sure many others will to.

We would still have three classes, seems like there would be a spot for everyone, and if a class dwindles, combine it with sportsman




As for the guys that have Rhinos laying around that won't be competitive against bigger bore machines, convert them to SR1s. Or run them as they are and let the better prepped machine win. It's the driver, the prep and pit/repair action that will win or lose a desert race usually.

I agree that we should have a pro class for the big machines. If there are that many new cars to race against, how about a pro up to 800 and a pro 1000. All the people that are currently racing would have no reason to stop as there is no change to the rules and those that have one of the many bigger machines should be happy racing eachother. If we keep all the current racers and add some of the new 800-1000 cars we could have 20+ racers at a BITD race. Want to promote the sport, show up with that many cars. Having three that go way fast does not do much to help us grow and bring attention from sponsors etc.

I have a Teryx that will be at the Henderson in preparation to run the whole next season at BITD. I could punch it out and be competative, but I don't want to see this series do the same thing as the last series did when the allowed all the motor swap and bigger cars to run. Everyone quit coming. I know part of it is the economy but when I have contacted some of the racers from last year they all said they don't come because they are not competative anymore. I support a pro class all the way and when I previously said to combine the sportsman class I should have clarified that.

Here is what BITD currently has:
1 PRO up to 800
2. Sportsman
3. SR-1

How about this:

1. Pro up to 800
2. Pro 800-1000
3. Sportsman ( all cars up to 1000 just like they currently are. Allow rhinos with engine swaps ie. teryx, can am, or cat as well as SR-1. any motor any make up to 1000 to let the old rhino guys have a class to race in if they want to swap rather than rebuild)

 

[Darryl89]

I agree that we should have a pro class for the big machines. If there are that many new cars to race against, how about a pro up to 800 and a pro 1000. All the people that are currently racing would have no reason to stop as there is no change to the rules and those that have one of the many bigger machines should be happy racing eachother. If we keep all the current racers and add some of the new 800-1000 cars we could have 20+ racers at a BITD race. Want to promote the sport, show up with that many cars. Having three that go way fast does not do much to help us grow and bring attention from sponsors etc.

I agree with having a class for the bigger cars. But that has already been discussed at length on another thread. And most of the racing consensus was that it should just be Pro UTV up to 1000cc and Sportsman class. Most of the experienced desert racers said motor size won't matter really...That I can see...

 

[rupert14]

I agree with having a class for the bigger cars. But that has already been discussed at length on another thread. And most of the racing consensus was that it should just be Pro UTV up to 1000cc and Sportsman class. Most of the experienced desert racers said motor size won't matter really...That I can see...

To those of us that can go bigger and stay competative, it is no big deal. To those that are already pushing their machines to the limit and not winning, the thought of racing against even larger motors takes the fun out of going to the race.

I started this thread simply because I hope thre are enough people concerned about the sport to chime in and be willing to help. If we don't help it grow, we can't complain about anything. I just want to help however I can and the "other thread" has a lot of finger pointing going on so I wanted to get away from that. I will be racing pro no matter what the engine size is, I just hope all the current competators come back next year.

Example: Jagged X has been doing well the last couple years. How many cars do you think a factory sponsored team like them would show up with if they already have a good 800 car, there is still an 800 class, and there is a new 1000 class for the new polaris they will inevitably be racing next season. I think teams like that just may show up with two cars rather than sell the old one and come with just one. If there was a class I could have been competative in, I would have kept my series winning rhino from last year and my team would have raced it along with my unlimited pro UTV that I won with this year.

 

[Darryl89]

To those of us that can go bigger and stay competative, it is no big deal. To those that are already pushing their machines to the limit and not winning, the thought of racing against even larger motors takes the fun out of going to the race.

I started this thread simply because I hope thre are enough people concerned about the sport to chime in and be willing to help. If we don't help it grow, we can't complain about anything. I just want to help however I can and the "other thread" has a lot of finger pointing going on so I wanted to get away from that. I will be racing pro no matter what the engine size is, I just hope all the current competators come back next year.

Example: Jagged X has been doing well the last couple years. How many cars do you think a factory sponsored team like them would show up with if they already have a good 800 car, there is still an 800 class, and there is a new 1000 class for the new polaris they will inevitably be racing next season. I think teams like that just may show up with two cars rather than sell the old one and come with just one. If there was a class I could have been competative in, I would have kept my series winning rhino from last year and my team would have raced it along with my unlimited pro UTV that I won with this year.

I can see your point. As long as the big cars don't get pushed to sportsman only class, I'm happy. I can deal with weight penalties or running the big cars in a seperate pro class.
You are right about trying to keep as many cars racing total, that will be good for the sport. Good point about teams keeping the older car to run a second class, that very well could be and is likely to happen. I didn't think about that.
Even if there are two pro classes, run them together at the same time and you will still have some pretty good dicing going on out there, would make for interesting racing.

 

[rupert14]

I completely agree. It is fun to race when there are a lot of cars out there, even if not all of them are in your class. It does not seem like many people agree so we will see what happens.

See you at the races. Nice to see another big cat getting ready to run. Bi-Polar did well and they ran stock suspension. I am curious to see what it will do with a full race build.

 

[the stripping shop]

the first thing i will say how many guys ran the complete season 2010 bitd season. I wil tell you 5 guys only 5 guys now how do you make that number increase. there are 3 rzr and 2 rhinos and i want to say the rhino is close enough to get the championship. I will say bitd is trying to get more utv to attend the races.Look at john deere they have showed the most interest so the rule needed to be changed. Do you increase cc for them or for all. I think the more manufactures involved the more people involved. Look at lucas only one manufacter involved in pro class and only 4 to 5 guys show up. If you increase cc you have john deere,articat,can am,polaris,yamaha, kawasaki that can all race together. Now i know what peolpe are going to say 800cc would do same thing. Yes and no take articat,john deere, and can-am guys out. Now you are left with same class you had last year.I can tell you this john deere 2 to 3 guys that will races a complete season. Can am 3 guys that will race a complete season. Articat maybe 1 a complete season. Polaris 2-5 guys a complete season. Kawasaki 1 guy for sure.Yamaha guys maybe 1 guy. 9 guys for sure in points. Do we split that in half or what would you guys do. I still say there should be a board for this situation.

 

[Darryl89]

the first thing i will say how many guys ran the complete season 2010 bitd season. I wil tell you 5 guys only 5 guys now how do you make that number increase. there are 3 rzr and 2 rhinos and i want to say the rhino is close enough to get the championship. I will say bitd is trying to get more utv to attend the races.Look at john deere they have showed the most interest so the rule needed to be changed. Do you increase cc for them or for all. I think the more manufactures involved the more people involved. Look at lucas only one manufacter involved in pro class and only 4 to 5 guys show up. If you increase cc you have john deere,articat,can am,polaris,yamaha, kawasaki that can all race together. Now i know what peolpe are going to say 800cc would do same thing. Yes and no take articat,john deere, and can-am guys out. Now you are left with same class you had last year.I can tell you this john deere 2 to 3 guys that will races a complete season. Can am 3 guys that will race a complete season. Articat maybe 1 a complete season. Polaris 2-5 guys a complete season. Kawasaki 1 guy for sure.Yamaha guys maybe 1 guy. 9 guys for sure in points. Do we split that in half or what would you guys do. I still say there should be a board for this situation.

I agree, a board to set the rules would be the best thing. Cory has done an admirable job for what he has to work with. There are grumblings that he is being self serving with the new rules, but I would say, if you don't like it, step forward and help set up a board that can set the rules. If you speak up, step up. I'll step up and offer my assistance on this. And I'm sure many others will too.

Yes, John Deere is building a race program and has some pretty interesting machines being developed, just wait and see what they have next year. And Arctic Cat is working on getting back into racing with a full program (and there looks to be 2 or 3 teams that will be running the Arctic Cat banner next year).

One restriction to BITD racing is it's costs. Typically, a UTV racer chooses UTV's to race since they are so much cheaper to build and run than say a class 1500 or 7200 vehicle. But excessive race and tracker and association and etc fees eats away at many racers, so they end up picking and choosing which races to run. Current BITD rules require you to run the full season to be eligible for Championship points. So right there, they have narrowed the field down themselves.
And by limiting the cc's to under 801, they cut out John Deere, Can Am 1000's and Arctic Cat 1000's. But soon, Yamaha and Polaris will have big bore machines out. And what about the 840 kit the is a dealer option for the Teryx next year.
There is now way about it, the classes are eventually going to have to be split in to the big machines and little ones (or should I say cc disadvantaged). They can still be run at the same time and the purses will be less since there would be less cars in each class, but the challenge and fun would still be there. Just think how many of those screaming 660 Rhinos are going to be out to whoop that 951cc Arctic Cat even though they aren't in the same class.

I would like to see 10 cars in each class, but with the costs of racing being what they are, it will take time to grow. It took motocross many years of struggling before it took off. I remember racing many races back in the 70's where there were 3 or 4 racers in the pro classes. Now there are dozens in each class, battling it out. It'll take time and lots of commitment by all of us to build the UTV classes. We may have to realize that our payouts aren't going to be big, but we also have to realize that running 2 or 3 cars in a class really isn't good for the sport either. Where is the happy medium...
All things for a board to work on and consider...

 

[Brian B]

If we use the current rules and expand them to 1000cc then basically all the people that race rhinos will most likely drop out as well as some others. Rhinos are already underpowered but luckily there are still some coming out.

I feel like I should mention this again...

I have spoken with Cory and Rotax powered Rhino's are now allowed to run sportsman. If we can find 5 or more racers we can have our out "pro" class.

If any Rhino racers want to take advantage of this, I'm doing cost sponsorships for the first 5 guys with a decent resume!

 

[rupert14]

I feel like I should mention this again...

I have spoken with Cory and Rotax powered Rhino's are now allowed to run sportsman. If we can find 5 or more racers we can have our out "pro" class.

If any Rhino racers want to take advantage of this, I'm doing cost sponsorships for the first 5 guys with a decent resume!

Great idea Brian. I would ask the question: "If there is a points/payback class that allows rotax swaps, why not allow all engine swaps with CVT to be in one class until your class grows large enough to break it out?" I know of one person contemplating a Teryx swap into a built race rhino because he has access to one cheap and it is a big upgrade to his car. I think we all have the same idea here. Let's make a class for everyone to race in. The problem is that in the end we have 35 classes with one car in each. I think you have come up with a great solution to the problem of having too many race rhinos without a class they can competatively compete in. The solution you have come up with is to bring guys with comparable engine swaps together and form a class. Your sponsorship is a perfect idea. I wish I could sponsor 100 rhinos to come out and race. If we did, we would have a great race and we would find out what is out there.

Another solution is to make the "single cylnder class". It would allow Rhinos, Artic Cats, and any other single piston cars to race together.

The hardest part of what we are trying to do is that we are making classes before the racers even show up. First, we need to get the UTV racers out in force, see what shows up, and decide the classes based on that. The question is, how do we do it and if we all came, how could we all contribute to the success of the organization and sport?

I think we all agree that the 1000 cars of today have a significant advantage when compared to the cars of 10 years ago. How do we allow the "class 1 rhinos" to race competatively without eliminating the "class 12 rhinos" of the past?

 

[dezertrebelz]

i do think this thread is more productive then the last. And i will admit to making some strong statements on the last, but we can start as many threads , make tons of suggestions, come up with all kinds of great ideas. But if the current sanctioning body Known as the utvra does not participate . Is it not as i've stated in the past , Just a joke??? Again i do not know the solution but if the current assoc. is unwilling to change the way things are run, ( according to what others have said) and no one takes the reins to head in a more productive direction , then what?? It seems to me like there is alot of great suggestions and good intentions on here, ( and thanks for a site to post this stuff) but until someone starts a more productive association, instead of a New THREAD, then all these great suggestions are just that, great. And nothing else.So i still stand at, the current association and the way its run is a JOKE. I will say on this thread no one should take anything from cory and i don't think anyone is trying too. BUT he was not the only one who started this assoc. and i know that most of the others who were involved, are no longer involved , because they didn't like the direction it was going.AND again not to take anything from cory for his contribution to this sport, but what about all the others who contribute in the media for the utv. LIke UTV underground for this site or Jon Crowley, Charlene Bower , Mike Lasher, Tim Orchard, Justin and bill and brandon schueller @ jagged X . and those are just the few off the top of my head??? I don't know the solution but right now it seems as though this entry level class in acting a bit more like an unlimited class.Its a fun class , i just hope it stays that way, but for me i'm leaning a little more towards changing into a class where the rules don't change so much. It is starting to cost about the same.
Nicholas

 

[Racers Edge]

Hello everyone,

My name is Eric and I help Cory with the UTVRA and BITD. I want to let you all know that I have been reading all the information and suggestions and have been taking notes to see what I can come up with and I will be meeting with Cory when he returns from Baja in a week. Below is some information to some of the questions or concerns that have come up so far.

1.) Splitting the pro class into two classes, a 600-800cc and a 800cc-1000cc.

The issue here is that there is no easy way to verify if the motor is legal or not. In the past we have had questions asked to us regarding other racers motor size and if it was legal. All that we have been able to doi s ask the racers directly and go from there. When we worked for CORR and now Lucas, if they wanted to check the size of the motor, they made the racers team tear the motor down after the race to verify size. We really don't want to get into having to do this at the BITD racers. We have tried using the pressure testers but they have not been accurate enough to be used. If anyone has some ideas on a better way of doing this, please let me know and I will be happy to look into it.

The easiest way to split class would be to do the single cylinder and dual cylinder classes. This is very easy to check and does not require any tear down for verification.

2.) A UTVRA/rules board.
In the past we have tried a board or group and most people stopped racing or showing up do to costs and such. We are not opposed to having a board/group of people that are willing to discuss rules changes and such. In the past we have tried to always consult with racers that were at the event or by phone/email if it was after the event to get their feedback regarding rule changes and questions. This was done with the new Artic Cat 1000 earlier this year when it was brought to a race. In the case of a protest at another race, several drivers were polled with the protest and asked their opinions. The decision was based on their input as well as direction from BITD.

3.) Attendance in classes
BITD and the UTVRA have always been willing to add classes if there is enough participation. BITD does not want to multiple classes with only a few entries. If racers show up and race the sportsman class regularly, we can begin looking into a new class. BITD will not look into a new class until it has been proven that there will be participation.

My email adress is eric.cowan@racersedge.net if anyone would like to email me directly with questions or comments. I look forward to hearing as many suggestions as possible and helping move this forward.

Thank You,

Eric

 

[rupert14]

i do think this thread is more productive then the last. And i will admit to making some strong statements on the last, but we can start as many threads , make tons of suggestions, come up with all kinds of great ideas. But if the current sanctioning body Known as the utvra does not participate . Is it not as i've stated in the past , Just a joke??? Again i do not know the solution but if the current assoc. is unwilling to change the way things are run, ( according to what others have said) and no one takes the reins to head in a more productive direction , then what?? It seems to me like there is alot of great suggestions and good intentions on here, ( and thanks for a site to post this stuff) but until someone starts a more productive association, instead of a New THREAD, then all these great suggestions are just that, great. And nothing else.So i still stand at, the current association and the way its run is a JOKE. I will say on this thread no one should take anything from cory and i don't think anyone is trying too. BUT he was not the only one who started this assoc. and i know that most of the others who were involved, are no longer involved , because they didn't like the direction it was going.AND again not to take anything from cory for his contribution to this sport, but what about all the others who contribute in the media for the utv. LIke UTV underground for this site or Jon Crowley, Charlene Bower , Mike Lasher, Tim Orchard, Justin and bill and brandon schueller @ jagged X . and those are just the few off the top of my head??? I don't know the solution but right now it seems as though this entry level class in acting a bit more like an unlimited class.Its a fun class , i just hope it stays that way, but for me i'm leaning a little more towards changing into a class where the rules don't change so much. It is starting to cost about the same.
Nicholas

Thanks for the input. I need to know who wants to participate, and what are you willing to do. I am willing to participate and put up $500 towards the legal fees associated with forming another organization. We need people that are willing to help, not just give opinions. I am willing to be on a board or help but I don't think I have the credentials to represent any aspect of the racing industry.

Come on guys, whether we help improve the UTVRA or form another organization, chime in and let us know what you are willing to do to help. I think we should build on what we have and not try to start all over.

 

[rupert14]

Hello everyone,

My name is Eric and I help Cory with the UTVRA and BITD. I want to let you all know that I have been reading all the information and suggestions and have been taking notes to see what I can come up with and I will be meeting with Cory when he returns from Baja in a week. Below is some information to some of the questions or concerns that have come up so far.

1.) Splitting the pro class into two classes, a 600-800cc and a 800cc-1000cc.

The issue here is that there is no easy way to verify if the motor is legal or not. In the past we have had questions asked to us regarding other racers motor size and if it was legal. All that we have been able to doi s ask the racers directly and go from there. When we worked for CORR and now Lucas, if they wanted to check the size of the motor, they made the racers team tear the motor down after the race to verify size. We really don't want to get into having to do this at the BITD racers. We have tried using the pressure testers but they have not been accurate enough to be used. If anyone has some ideas on a better way of doing this, please let me know and I will be happy to look into it.

The easiest way to split class would be to do the single cylinder and dual cylinder classes. This is very easy to check and does not require any tear down for verification.

2.) A UTVRA/rules board.
In the past we have tried a board or group and most people stopped racing or showing up do to costs and such. We are not opposed to having a board/group of people that are willing to discuss rules changes and such. In the past we have tried to always consult with racers that were at the event or by phone/email if it was after the event to get their feedback regarding rule changes and questions. This was done with the new Artic Cat 1000 earlier this year when it was brought to a race. In the case of a protest at another race, several drivers were polled with the protest and asked their opinions. The decision was based on their input as well as direction from BITD.

3.) Attendance in classes
BITD and the UTVRA have always been willing to add classes if there is enough participation. BITD does not want to multiple classes with only a few entries. If racers show up and race the sportsman class regularly, we can begin looking into a new class. BITD will not look into a new class until it has been proven that there will be participation.

My email adress is eric.cowan@racersedge.net if anyone would like to email me directly with questions or comments. I look forward to hearing as many suggestions as possible and helping move this forward.

Thank You,

Eric

Thanks so much for the responce. I fully agree with a single vs multiple cylnder pro class and a board williing to help. A class split like that keeps the cars of the past (rhino, ranger, artic cat 700 etc) race legal and competing with eachother but opens up the twin class for whatever we can build. Great idea. Thank you so much for your post and let me know what I can do to help.

Bob Raber
928-848-4570
yoursmiledoc@gmail.com

 

[Big Guy]

All this disscusion is well and good but without Cory on board it is pointless..not trying to be negative but it seems to me that what we have now is what we have. From what Ive heard nothing is going to change as far as UTVRA and BITD rules are concerened. If you guys want to work with SNORE then I think that would be your best bet.